Foxhunting-thanks Ritchie for the idea

[roXXo]

Being born, bred and still living in the country I have grown up with family friends who hunt and feel as strongly for hunting as much as I do against it, but it is not the town versus the country. The majority of my relations and villagers where I live are Anti hunting.

My maternal grandfather was a farm labourer as were most of my great uncles. All of them were anti hunting but because some of them were in tied cottages they had to do what they were told. My great grandmother was thrown out of her cottage by the landowner when she was widowed.

As has been said before I agree that hunting with dogs is as out dated and barbaric as bear bating and cock fighting.
There is no justification what so ever for hunting with dogs.
Iif folks want to gallop about on horses with dogs, what's wrong with drag hunting.
These folk who bleat on about dogs having to be put down and farriers and other equestrian numnah retailers being out of work is total nonsense.
As for Farmers. All the ones I know, far from looking after their animals as they should be, they are the most cruel, greedy people I know.

QUOTE=Jaws]Whilst I hate harming any living thing, that does not give me the right to dictate to other people.
I can express an opinion, I can try to persuade others to my way of thinking, but I do not have the right to remove someone civil libertys.

And sorry to have to tell you this, a fox is, whether liked or not, vermin.

I seem to be saying this very regularly of late..
Yet another nail driven in the coffin of our personal liberty.

The issue is not whether this or that should be banned.. the issue is that we in the UK are constantly having little bits and bobs taken away from us..

All you lot sitting there now saying but hunting is not / is right, might not be so happy in a few years time when you wake up one morning and realise that you are not free men at all.. its happening NOW people.. and bans on anything ( smoking, fox hunting, driving whilst eating an apple, whatever etc etc ) is the not so thin end of a very large wedge..
I bet many of you who are politicaly aware of what is going on in the world let out a small sigh of relief when Pol Pot popped off in 98, yet we are living in a similar society.. it might not be so violent but strangulation with a velvet rope is just as deadly as good old fashioned hemp ![/QUOTE]
Paranoid or what John. You cannot compare the freedom and luxury we have in this country to the khymer Rouge.
Civil rights my arse.
Some things are just wrong and should not be allowed. Hunting with dogs is wrong.
Thankfully the majority of right minded people in these isles agree and hopefully this legal challenge nonsense of the countryside alliance will fail.

Not just singling Jaws out, but his post stuck in my mind.
:beer:

 

[SILVERONE]

Vermin or Non Vermin

What is the deciding factor that makes an animal vermin :dunno: on the whole it seems like (to me) it's one that tries to adapt to modern mans way of life after we have removed it's natural habitat, so it has to try and live very close to man.
Which we can not accepte (for some reason) but we willingly accepte unnatural animals, chickens, sheep, cows, dogs & cats, the list go'es on, the fox is natural to this country it has right to be here, the above don't.

Ps I'm guilty I have a dog & cat :blush:

 

[ianrobbo1]

Which we can not accepte (for some reason) but we willingly accepte unnatural animals, chickens, sheep, cows, dogs & cats, the list go'es on, the fox is natural to this country it has right to be here, the above don't.

Ps I'm guilty I have a dog & cat :blush:

thats it hes admitted it hes guilty,!!! best go chase him to ground, :}

 

[derek kelly]

Whatever happened to the Wolves that roamed freely in this country at one time?

The red kite that they are struggling to re introduce,

How many varieties of butterflies/moths do you see now compared to when you were a kid,

We are supposed to be the intelligent ones yet we are destroying our own habitat, what dumb animal do you see doing that?

 

[bitontheside]

We are supposed to be the intelligent ones yet we are destroying our own habitat, what dumb animal do you see doing that?[/QUOTE]

Huntsmen?

 

[Centaur]

Struggling

Whatever happened to the Wolves that roamed freely in this country at one time?

The red kite that they are struggling to re introduce,

How many varieties of butterflies/moths do you see now compared to when you were a kid,

We are supposed to be the intelligent ones yet we are destroying our own habitat, what dumb animal do you see doing that?

Fookin red kites. There are zillions of the bloody thing about now.....and great it is to see them. :bow: regarding hunting with dogs. Fox are vermin and have to be controlled. The besty way is with dogs to drive them onto the shotguns. Hunts are so ineffective as a way of controlling foxes as to be not worth considering. Make them drag hunt and they can have their fun and damned few foxes will be hurt. only the occasional ones who get in the way and are stupid enough to get caught. Improve the fox gene pool anyway! Rrobbo, what about fox leathers?

 

[Aidey]

ERmm, Ive been to Cheltenham today. Lucky me.
I went up the A46, along the M4, up the M5 and back down the A46.
I counted 3 dead foxes, 2 dead badgers and a few pheasants. All killed by vehicles, driven (hopefully) by lovely caring, sharing, would'nt harm a fly human beings. Spread this across the country and there must be hundreds of dead animals every day (not to mention people) killed by drivers. Any signs of outrage in the popular, gutter press? None that I know of. Ban the killer car? Wont happen. But we all drive our cars, lorries, vans, buses etc knowing full well it has the potential to kill other life forms. And many, many people drive their vehicles in a reckless manner which is guaranteed to harm something else sooner or later.
I will just say now that on the hunting issue I don't have a particular view, I'm niether for it or against it. People chasing foxes don't kill that many, people driving vehicles kill a hell of a lot more. Should we ban vehicles? If the issue is the untimely death of an animal then I guess we should. How many other animals are glanced by a car and drag themselves off to suffer a long and agonising, starving death? Has any one ever visited an old foxes home, where they can spend their twilight years with fond memories of chasing rabbits, chickens, cats. All animals die sad, lonely deaths through starvation, sickness, injury etc. Don't anybody misread this as a justification for hunting, because it's not meant to be. I am saddened to read on this particular sight the willingness of some members to use physical violence against others because they do not agree with somebody elses viewpoint. Is this civilised? I don't think so.

 

[derek kelly]

Most people use their vehicles out of neccessity, and do not set out with the intention of harming animals, but as you rightly point out it happens, and you also quite rightly point out that animals die sad lonely and sometimes painful deaths, but that is nature, but it does not justify some blood crazed moron in donning a red coat and hounding the poor creatures till their lungs burst.

as for the use of violence I am not a violent person by nature, but I will not stand by and witness mindless cruelty(as one of our dog handlers found out)
also when you have the said moron on his horse using his crop against women and children would you stand by and watch, I couldn't

You tend to find in the forces that some NCO's take up fox hunting, for the simple reason that they are trying to prove that they are officer material, they are striving to be middle class, what they don't realise is that in the so called class system it is where you start out on the social ladder that counts not where you finish up

 

[R2B2]

If the issue is the untimely death of an animal

??

I think the issue is more the cruel manner of the death rather than it being untimely.

I dont like to see the roadkill either but as they are accidental in manner (albeit at the hand of man), can they really be offered up as comparisons to those killed quite deliberately by the dogs that are trained to do precisely that...? :dunno:

 

[KevKing]

Thank you, Aidey, for a glimmer of common sense in this polarised argument. I only posted yesterday and was amazed to come back and read through all your responses (has just taken me over an hour). Whilst you all guessed that I support "The Hunt" I do that for it as a whole and not especially for the end result as some see it.
In Devon only about 10% of meets actually catch a fox and when they do, the first dog will kill it instantly. What you see on the ALF and similar videos is the carcass being tossed around - many animals do this with their prey and we dont complain - eg cats (horrible sneaky creatures) with mice. Its part of their makeup. Less than 15% of foxes killed in the country each year are attributed to foxhunting, the rest die naturally or are run over or maimed by vehicles, caught in traps (now they arent humane!) or die from disease- these are RSPCA figures! PS Ive never seen a fox with its lungs burst (can a biologist explain how that can be?)
Foxhounds are hunting animals whether we breed them or not and the horses are also ridden outside the hunt.
Hunts always obtain permission before riding over other peoples land. They sometimes go across country lanes in pursuit so what is the problem with stopping your car or bike for e few minutes to let them pass? After all you dont threaten to kill the farmer who is walking his sheep or cattle down the road! :dunno:
Those of you who say that people should get jobs elsewhere if the hunts are banned miss the point - the point is that a lot of parliamentary time has been wasted in the past few years because of a perceived notion that everyone who hunts or supports it is a toff (typical Labour myopia). Many of the people who gain a living from the hunt (and ride with it) are not well paid and are definitely not "upper class", however you define that. Apologies for the mention of politics!
What people get most out of hunting, like any other sport, pastime or club, is the pleasure of meeting like minded people for a common purpose, excellent exercise in often beautiful countryside and the feeling of belonging to the country rather than wanting to cover it with concrete and bus lanes for fat b****rds jags! If that sounds corny then you need to get out more!! :rant:
And Yes, I still support capital punishment, becuase if used correctly (eg Singapore/Malaysia) it is the most powerful deterrent to lawbreakers - Singapore has a population the same as Birmingham yet there are only 3 or 4 murders a year! Yes I believe in tough but fair Immigration policy and all those other things that are supposed to make us a Democracy (LOL) and I dont want to see the country slide into an apathetic state run by people who dont care about history and tradition - that, after all is what makes us who we are today. STOP, enough politics - Ho hum, think I'll take the dog for a walk - see if he can catch a rabbit (oops!).

 

[R2B2]

and when they do, the first dog will kill it instantly.

Oh pleeeeeeease... c'mon. That is just nonsense!! For heavens sake, are they still trying to sell that old chestnut. The dogs will form an orderly queue while the first one administers the instant killer blow will they..? Uhh, I dont think so!

NOT a personal attack Kev... but that one is like one of the others that the hunt supporters often use, - you know the one about all the poor redundant dogs that will have to be put down if the hunting gets banned. Lets put that one to bed as well......... they just shoot the dogs when they can't run fast enough any more, so I dont think they are too bothered about the hounds future welfare either.

What people get most out of hunting, like any other sport, pastime or club, is the pleasure of meeting like minded people for a common purpose, excellent exercise in often beautiful countryside and the feeling of belonging to the country rather than wanting to cover it with concrete

That sounds great. I could go for that!! And I guess it could be the same for many others. So, at the conclusion, why the need to kill an animal with a pack of specifically trained dogs?? Can you, or anybody, explain that bit to me because that's the only bit I can't get my head around. :h :h

 

[derek kelly]

And also please explain why some hunts breed their own foxes to hunt,if after all fox hunting is just a glorified ride across open countryside,
As for obtaining permission from landowners that is simply not true, when I lived in Chelmsford it was often in the local press regarding hunts riding roughshod through peoples land, even gardens without permission to such an extent that quite often family pets were destroyed by the fox hounds, sometimes in front of children,
you are right when you say that it isn't just the middle classes who are into fox hunting, as I stated earlier, there are some sad people that are aspiring to be middle class.
on another point what about other peoples horses happily grazing in a field when the baying mob come charging through the next field scaring the life out of them, they run off in a panic and try leaping out of the field often injuring themselves quite badly sometimes fatally.

 

[trophychap]

I was listening to Radio 2 yesterday whilst driving along in my White Van, and it was stated that the government of this sceptred isle spent a total of seven hours debating whether we went to war in Iraq and two hundred and twenty hours debating whether we should ban hunting with dogs.

Sort of puts things in perspective doesn't it, ergo am I to conclude from this that the life of a British squaddy is 31.43 times less important than that of a fox!!!

Get fecking real the government was and still is looking for cheap votes. It seems to me now that the Pro hunt brigade are making more noise now than the anti's and they are going with the flow again, probably working on the assumption that most pro hunt voters live in the marginal country seats.

The proposal to ban hunting was not even in the last election manifesto. It was in the 97 manifesto and got chucked out in the commons, it seems to me that it has been resurrected as a smoke screen to hide the fact that there were no weapons of mass destruction.

Just my opinion call me cynical if you like.

 

[KevKing]

Trust me, the fox, if it gets caught at all, it gets killed pretty instantly, it was a pest in that area anyhow and has a better fate than those runover by cars or dying slowly by disease. As for the hounds, unless they sustain life threatening injuries (v. rare) they are kept on at the kennels. How many racehorses/greyhounds are given that luxury if they cant race? Remember these are my experiences of a particular hunt - yours may obviously be different. In the greater scheme of things it IS a relative load of bollocks as Trophy Man pointed out - there are a lot more pressing items on the agenda for our increasingly lame and manipulative government - like making up excuses for Foot and Mouth epidemics, war with Iraq and why after 7 years we still have long queues and more managers than doctors and nurses in the NHS.

Trophy Chap - Instead of cynical I prefer to think of myself as realistic - pretty much the same thing these days!


:bang:

 

[roXXo]

Foxhounds are hunting animals whether we breed them or not and the horses are also ridden outside the hunt.
Hunts always obtain permission before riding over other peoples land.

All dogs are hunting animals. Foxhounds are trained in packs for a specific purpose.
They might get permission from like minded farmers but the fox and the hounds don't know where the boundaries are. As a 10 year old boy I was terrified when a pack of hounds ended up in my grandmothers garden.

Foxhunting is not some millennia old tradition carried out by all. As with any hunting with horses and dogs it was the royalty, aristocrats and wealthy land owners that carried it out.

What is wrong with drag hunting. Just as much fun. Out in the country, enjoying the horses and the hounds.

Greyhound/racehorse abuse is also wrong. It doesn't make the pro hunting case any stronger.
There were plenty of so called dog loving kennel folk who were prepared to kill all the hounds if they will not be allowed to hunt.
What's wrong with drag hunting.

Of course there are more important issues than fox hunting to be debated and leesser ones but it does not mean that time should not be given to it.

CAPITAL punishment as a deterent does not work. Criminals always think they will never get caught. Singapore, Malaysia? USA? how many hundreds of murderers are on death row?

Systems will never be perfect, but this government has invested more and achieved more in education, healthcare and policing/security than any of the previous administrations.

I have a Labrador that will chase rabbits, partridge etc. That has nothing to do whatsoever with hunting with dogs.

Would the pro hunt lobby want to bring back bear bating, cock fighting or any other form of animal torture/cruelty.
There is no arguement for hunting with dogs. Why do it?
What's wrong with drag hunting?

:beer:

 

[derek kelly]

I would still like to know why some hunts breed foxes for the chase
Strange how I have already raised this question twice and it has not yet been answered

 

[RHINO]

Capitol Punishment is wrong in many cases, look at that solicitor, she's just been freed after proving her innocence and so has that Scottsman from DeathRow.................. Accidents and poor judgement does occur.

Kulling: My brother in Stockport hunts, he uses high powered rifles and has permision from many Cheshire farms to hunt Foxes. Personally i like to see them BUT if the landowner wants rid then thats his choice.
My brother can and does shoot a large quantity of Foxes,Rats,Pigeon and Magpie at the request of the landowner however a Shotgun is NOT the right tool for Foxes hence the rifle.... If a job needs doing then it should be with the correct tools and Hounds are NOT the correct tool for extermination of Foxes!

I KNOW for a fact from AGISTERS, COMMONERS and RANGERS in the New Forest that hounds not capable of hunting are destroyed!!!!!!!!!

The HUNT will cross peoples land without permission, it happened in 'Much Wenlock' in Shropshire in the late 80's when i was working on a farm in 'STRETTON WESTWOOD' the landowner was hopping mad and raised the point with the NFU rep regarding it. The excuse given was that the land had to be crossed to access other permitted land!!!!!

The Fox is NOT killed instantly by 1 dog, it is set upon by a PACK hence the term PACK animal, they attack in multiples to lessen the risk of injury as in HYENAS, LIONS and WOLVES... Even a lion doesn't kill a tiny antelope with a 1st hit, they generally suffocate slowly!!!!!!!!

 

[birdinflight]

I would imagine DErek

I would still like to know why some hunts breed foxes for the chase
Strange how I have already raised this question twice and it has not yet been answered

that they breed them for the sole purpose of hunting so that they are almost guaranteed to get a fox. Otherwise they ride around the country waiting for the dogs to pick a scent up of a wild fox, touch and go. A bit like breeding pheasants, no point ingoing out shooting if there aren't any pheasants around!

 

[derek kelly]

that they breed them for the sole purpose of hunting so that they are almost guaranteed to get a fox. Otherwise they ride around the country waiting for the dogs to pick a scent up of a wild fox, touch and go. A bit like breeding pheasants, no point ingoing out shooting if there aren't any pheasants around!

Exactly but it somewhat dilutes the argument put forward by the pro hunters that they are hunting to eradicate vermin,

 

[bitontheside]

Thank you, Aidey, for a glimmer of common sense in this polarised argument. BECAUSE HE AGREES WITH YOU? I only posted yesterday and was amazed to come back and read through all your responses (has just taken me over an hour). BECAUSE CARING PEOPLE HATE IT WITH A VENGANCE?


Hunts always obtain permission before riding over other peoples land. BOLLOCKS! They sometimes go across country lanes in pursuit so what is the problem with stopping your car or bike for e few minutes to let them pass? After all you dont threaten to kill the farmer who is walking his sheep or cattle down the road! :dunno: HE IS WORKING - YOU ARE NOT!




What people get most out of hunting, like any other sport, pastime or club, is the pleasure of meeting like minded people for a common purpose - RIPPING ANIMALS TO PIECES!


excellent exercise in often beautiful countryside and the feeling of belonging to the country - GO FOR A WALK!










And Yes, I still support capital punishment, becuase if used correctly (eg Singapore/Malaysia) it is the most powerful deterrent to lawbreakers - Singapore has a population the same as Birmingham yet there are only 3 or 4 murders a year! Yes I believe in tough but fair Immigration policy and all those other things that are supposed to make us a Democracy (LOL) and I dont want to see the country slide into an apathetic state run by people who dont care about history and tradition - that, after all is what makes us who we are today.


I THOUGHT THIS WAS ABOUT HUNTING?

Kev - we do live in a Democracy - that is why the Goverment have said they will ban hunting - because that is what the majority of Britons want! That is Democracy in action. Don't whinge about it if you don't happen to like it! It is also why we are allowed to have debates like this - and long may it continue!