Making progress?

[slim63]

Gentlemen I will address those questions & then I'm done with this thread @tu* I don't expect you to actually do it but suggest you read ALL my previous posts on the matter with an open mind :dunno:

Mick, right at the start I said speed isn't dangerous in itself I honestly thought that would be taken in the spirit it was written , obviously not so to clarify,

In my opinion most people's gut reaction as evidenced by this thread is that going fast as a dangerous thing & it IS in the wrong place & at the wrong time without the appropriate level of skill & awareness but without outside forces such as the raised manhole you mentioned earlier & a good level of skill 160mph isn't going to kill you is it

None of us knew the riders skills, experience or the road conditions or traffic at the time of the offence & still don't, if the rider had turned out to be one V Rossi for example on a clear road I will wager the opinions expressed would be very different :whi5tl:

Yes I know there are many knobheads out there that try to ride well beyond their ability but there is no evidence that this particular fella was doing anything other than going fast (see above)

My problem with all of this is the attitude of the court EG fast = dangerous which simply isn't true although fast & fecking it up or doing it in the wrong place is dangerous & can kill you as evidenced by the video DA posted

I'd be interested to hear your opinion on that video by the way @tu*

PS Having been to Cardington & passed should tell you something about my personal riding style & skill level
PPS no none of the above was ever for students :-0)

Caspar
I understand your post fully but at no time did I say it was safe for ANYONE, in fact some supposedly experienced riders I wouldn't be happy to let out on a Puch Maxi

Originally I was trying to make the point that most here where condemning the bloke without knowing the full facts of the case EG he was speeding so he must be a knob ............. taking that thought one step further & applying the same thought process 80mph on a motorway is speeding so anyone who does it is a knob The only real difference is the level of speed isn't it, I just think other factors should be taken into consideration during sentencing is all

So if 70 in a 60 = speeding = knob regardless of anything else, i'll take a punt here & say this is a forum full of knobs then 8rfl@

I hope you see my point fellas, probably not but that's life eh :-0)

 

[sr71caspar]

Good points slim and yes we don't know the cicumstances.

But...then again......neither do you.

So...how can you say this particular fella was fine in his actions?

Most people based their opinions on this particular case....160mph....5.20pm (in rush hour, lots of traffic probably) but you seem to have defended him to the hilt.
People have said "time and a place for it" so they are not saying speeding is 'wrong', just where and when you choose to do so is an important factor.

This particular idiot got caught. Wrong time, wrong place, wrong speed, wrong rider judgement.
I don't think you could really back this case.

 

[andyBeaker]

One of the things that has been skimmed over in this thread is the (high) potential to impact on other people.

It wouldn't matter if it were Slim63 or Valentino Rossi hitting me at 160, it's really not going to make a lot of difference.

 

[Centaur]

One of the things that has been skimmed over in this thread is the (high) potential to impact on other people.

It wouldn't matter if it were Slim63 or Valentino Rossi hitting me at 160, it's really not going to make a lot of difference.

Would you like to let us know any occasions where bikers have injured others by speeding, Andy? :dunno:

 

[Dark Angel]

The point I am trying to make is speed isn't intrinsically dangerous as suggested by the judge,
other factors have to come into play to make it dangerous as you so rightly point out ...
even though I didn't need the lesson

Well, Slim - I've enjoyed the discussion up until now, but consider this:

?Speed? does not, and cannot exist as a physical entity because it?s a ?measurement?, not a ?thing?.

Therefore (if I understand your logic correctly) speed, in itself, is not ?intrinsically dangerous?. Agreed.

To insist, however, that a motorcycle, or any other vehicle, travelling at 100/160 mph on an open public road
is not ?intrinsically dangerous? is, in my opinion, the height of nonsense.

As a former DSA/Advanced Instructor myself, I find it incredible that you should hold or promote such a view.

 

[slim63]

Good points slim and yes we don't know the cicumstances.

But...then again......neither do you.

So...how can you say this particular fella was fine in his actions?

Most people based their opinions on this particular case....160mph....5.20pm (in rush hour, lots of traffic probably) but you seem to have defended him to the hilt.
People have said "time and a place for it" so they are not saying speeding is 'wrong', just where and when you choose to do so is an important factor.

This particular idiot got caught. Wrong time, wrong place, wrong speed, wrong rider judgement.
I don't think you could really back this case.

A very good point but the simple answer is I didn't, I just didn't condemn him out of hand :whi5tl:

 

[slim63]

Well, Slim - I've enjoyed the discussion up until now, but consider this:

“Speed” does not, and cannot exist as a physical entity because it’s a “measurement”, not a “thing”.

Therefore (if I understand your logic correctly) speed, in itself, is not “intrinsically dangerous”. Agreed.

To insist, however, that a motorcycle, or any other vehicle, travelling at 100/160 mph on an open public road
is not “intrinsically dangerous” is, in my opinion, the height of nonsense.

As a former DSA/Advanced Instructor myself, I find it incredible that you should hold or promote such a view.

Again a good point but as above I didn't :-0)

I have also enjoyed the discussion which is why I am posting despite saying I wouldn't :dunno:

You have almost come to the same conclusion as me with this post believe it or not, I will put it as simply as I can

Speed isn't dangerous but the factors you are not always able to control at speed are, whether the bloke in the original post was more in control of those factors than the lad who got killed is open to debate

I think by now you all know my opinion on it :whi5tl:

 

[Dark Angel]

You have almost come to the same conclusion as me

No - I believe that riding/driving at racing speeds on open public roads is intrinsically dangerous.

You've stated that you believe it's possible to ride safely at racing speeds on open public roads.

If I understand you correctly you are saying that 160 on a public road can be acceptable.

Acceptable NO possible safely YES

I can?t and won?t agree with that view, which I hope you?ll re-consider.

 

[noobie]

For myself when getting a new bike, even if I have had a similar model before, within a few weeks I spank it in every direction, speed, handling, brakes. This was enlightening on the zzr1400 on the way to work one morning at 4 am.

My point for mentioning this, once this has been done, I ride probably to same as the rest of you, mostly on motorways poodling around 80-85 and might on occasion look down and see 110 (easy to not notice on a bike bike), and then back down to the 80's again.

For anyone going at 160 and above, it is a deliberate act, it isn't an accident and at that speed you will garnish attention even on the quieter roads. Like I said, I know this road and to be doing that speed in evening rush hour on that road, it is unlikely to have been completely empty so he was being a twat.

 

[Centaur]

I wish I hadn't said anything now! 8rfl@

 

[noobie]

I wish I hadn't said anything now! 8rfl@

Could have been worse, you could have asked why only Dale Winton types buy the red ones :-0)

 

[andyBeaker]

I wish I hadn't said anything now! 8rfl@

You are not alone

8rfl@

 

[Dark Angel]

I wish I hadn't said anything now!

 

[slim63]

I can?t and won?t agree with that view, which I hope you?ll re-consider.

I am as unlikely to change my view as you are mate, so i'll call it a day on this one

 

[Cougar377]

The simple fact is this:

160mph = roughly 70m/sec

So if 200m up the road someone pulls out of a driveway or junction, or someone steps off of a kerb, or an animal bolts across the road...and right into your path...then you've got less than 3 seconds to stop.

Allowing a full second thinking time, that leaves you less than 2 seconds to brake safely in a controlled manner and stop 300kg+ of bike and rider in about 140m or less.

By the way...it took you about twice that time to read the last sentence....

I emphasise "in a controlled manner" because that's what it'll take to apply the brakes effectively to stop that bike during those 2 seconds. Snatching them will either lock the front or flip the bike and you're down.

So you're going to have to be very skilled at applying the correct amount of pressure to maximise braking AND grip AND stop in time without dumping it, locking the front or flipping it....all in 2 seconds and over about 140m.

Now I'll hazzard a guess at this point... but I bet most people on this forum don't routinely practice emergency braking from 160 to 0mph on a Blackbird, so I think it's safe to assume that it wouldn't end well for any of us.

Factor in wet roads and/or poor road surfaces and it's a dead cert (sorry...) that it'll be messy.

Now you can say, "right road, right speed" and that may be so.
I say, do it often enough and get away with it and it can't help but make you complacent.

And complacency kills.

You can say "my life, my risk".
I say someone will still be stood by a graveside....yours....the poor sods that you hit....it doesn't matter.

 

[jeffa]

Thank you, mathematics cant be wrong @tu*

 

[slim63]

Maths was never my strong point :-0)

I don't see any driveways on the on the A47 at thorny :whi5tl:

A mate of mine got crippled at less than 40mph because he broke his back & another died on an SS50, obviously speed wasn't a factor in either of those incidents so whatever your view be careful out there & if you do like to go fast use your brain to minimise the risks

 

[mickvfr800fiw]

Maths was never my strong point :-0)

I don't see any driveways on the on the A47 at thorny :whi5tl:

A mate of mine got crippled at less than 40mph because he broke his back & another died on an SS50, obviously speed wasn't a factor in either of those incidents so whatever your view be careful out there & if you do like to go fast use your brain to minimise the risks

It's reassuring to see most bikers in this thread don't agree with your views slim :-0)

I witnessed the aftermath of a bike v pedestrian collision on the northbound approach to London Bridge in 2011 . The bikers speed was 40 mph . The young woman died in hospital the following day . Obviously speed had no part in this fatality.

here you go you might recognise this name " Jason Roberts " .

I followed him out of east London for around 12 months . He was always carrying his pillion riding a zzr1400 always travelling in excess of 100 mph weaving in and out of traffic .

Eventually and no doubt due to the. Complaints from worried members of the public although I have no evidence to back this up with Essex police waited for him one morning a filmed him using an unmarked bike .

He was a completely shit rider in my view but like many one trick ponies probably viewed himself as some sort of Demi god

 

[noobie]

I don't see any driveways on the on the A47 at thorny :whi5tl:

You are correct sir, it is just one long dual carriageway between 2 roundabouts.

No one stepping off a kerb. the animals are in farmland and well fenced in and the road is long with excellent forward vision

I still wouldn't have done it at 5.20 pm though :-0)

 

[slim63]

It's reassuring to see most bikers in this thread don't agree with your views slim :-0)

I witnessed the aftermath of a bike v pedestrian collision on the northbound approach to London Bridge in 2011 . The bikers speed was 40 mph . The young woman died in hospital the following day . Obviously speed had no part in this fatality.

here you go you might recognise this name " Jason Roberts " .

I followed him out of east London for around 12 months . He was always carrying his pillion riding a zzr1400 always travelling in excess of 100 mph weaving in and out of traffic .

Eventually and no doubt due to the. Complaints from worried members of the public although I have no evidence to back this up with Essex police waited for him one morning a filmed him using an unmarked bike .

He was a completely shit rider in my view but like many one trick ponies probably viewed himself as some sort of Demi god

There you go again :-0)

As per the noobies post we are not talking about a pedestrian area a 30, 40 or even 60mph limit, we are not talking about an area where there are multiple hazards bad surface or bad conditions are we ?

just my opinion but if you ride like a knob in any of the above situations you deserve everything you get , on a wide open road with everything as good as it can be my opinion differs :-0) on the same wide open road with less favourable conditions I would agree with most posters on this thread

What many are doing is failing to consider the difference :bang: