M
morphgarth
Guest
Yes as usual MTK is on the money.Jono said:
BTW, I prefer "Feds" or "cops".
-
Welcome to the new B.I.R.D. Forum. Please be sure to read the "New Member / New Registered ? Please Read" thread in the Coffee Shop. This contains some important information. To become a full member ( £5.90 a year ) simply click on your user name near the top on the right I hope you enjoy the new site ................ Jaws ( John )
Sorry to the guyswho are job on here but..
- Thread starter Jaws
- Start date
BTW, I prefer "Feds" or "cops".
C
chuffmeister
Guest
Jono said:
..................h1d1ng2
mick the knife
Registered User
Jono said:
C
chuffmeister
Guest
heard you CANT give a fcuk anymore either d34lmick the knife said:
:-0)
mick the knife
Registered User
True, but I can wank like a demon.chuffmeister said:
M
morphgarth
Guest
wherever I've worked they've been a staple diet, a currency and the backbone of the discipline system!
E
Ebiff2k
Guest
The old bill get up Fox's dinner quite often on a Monday, now fair play people speed and wheelie down the road, and they get pulled, if you do the crime, do the time. I get pissed when me and a few mates turn up in a car park, stop for a chat/smoke and 10mins later we have 2 cop cars pull up telling us to move on!! like that's gonna get you respect?
Last time i called the police when my old car got broken into they said sorry nothing we can do. Some drunken lout smashes a cop car window and what's the response Five patrol cars, a helicopter and a dog, nice, i want a refund of my tax that pays for this.
Last time i called the police when my old car got broken into they said sorry nothing we can do. Some drunken lout smashes a cop car window and what's the response Five patrol cars, a helicopter and a dog, nice, i want a refund of my tax that pays for this.
Sorry Ian but the plod here are of the opinion that if it is done in front of them they can get a nick, if it aint ( burglury, car crime, whatever ) then they are unlikely to get a result and simply will not bother to turn up..
So to answer a question you set retorically, we are NOT better with them ( in the case you put forward ) than without, as we are effectively without them already.
And you chaps in the game, please remember I live in a small town that has been used as a training ground for certain other areas for gawd knows how long.. I know and speak very regularly a good many of the older lads and what I am saying is from their own mouths.. not just something made up or spouted by someone pissed off cos they have been nabbed..
Oh and if you can ( or indeed can be bothered cos it aint really worth the effort to be honest ) get someone to check out the logs for the Peterborough area, Sunday afternoon from 1400 to 1900..
Response time for cat2 was approx 40 to 60 minutes.. ( not good ) yet there was enough spare woodentops to keep at least 6 on the roads surrounding the show ground..
As for the comments re plate sizes etc you are completely missing the point.
The issue is the fact that it is increasingly the policy to take a nick that is easy with a def result over any other shout.. reason being if you do not hit your figures your force is penalised fiscally.
But whilst such things are massarging ( sp ?? ) figures, they are doing feck all to raise the game agin 'proper' criminals.
Sure, nick the man with a small plate or whatever, but for goodness sake put it into context !
Remember where the word Police came from. ( If you are job you should know,, for those that aint it is from the greek word Polit which translated means 'of the people' ( or so one of my old lecturers told us
) )
The modern police is no longer of te people.. they are now of the police..
So to answer a question you set retorically, we are NOT better with them ( in the case you put forward ) than without, as we are effectively without them already.
And you chaps in the game, please remember I live in a small town that has been used as a training ground for certain other areas for gawd knows how long.. I know and speak very regularly a good many of the older lads and what I am saying is from their own mouths.. not just something made up or spouted by someone pissed off cos they have been nabbed..
Oh and if you can ( or indeed can be bothered cos it aint really worth the effort to be honest ) get someone to check out the logs for the Peterborough area, Sunday afternoon from 1400 to 1900..
Response time for cat2 was approx 40 to 60 minutes.. ( not good ) yet there was enough spare woodentops to keep at least 6 on the roads surrounding the show ground..
As for the comments re plate sizes etc you are completely missing the point.
The issue is the fact that it is increasingly the policy to take a nick that is easy with a def result over any other shout.. reason being if you do not hit your figures your force is penalised fiscally.
But whilst such things are massarging ( sp ?? ) figures, they are doing feck all to raise the game agin 'proper' criminals.
Sure, nick the man with a small plate or whatever, but for goodness sake put it into context !
Remember where the word Police came from. ( If you are job you should know,, for those that aint it is from the greek word Polit which translated means 'of the people' ( or so one of my old lecturers told us
) )The modern police is no longer of te people.. they are now of the police..
rovinghawk
Registered User
Jaws said:
I see the logic here- they're likely to be drug dealers/burglars/muggers, so let's nick them for their number plate. That'll show who's the law!
If I take up armed robbery or murder I'm certainly not getting myself a small number plate.
RH
Pugwash
Registered User
I lived in Peterborough for 11 years, and rode a bike for a good 7 of them.
I got pulled over two times by the local police in total, and to be fair I was making good progress each time. The worst they did was give me a producer and told me to use my mirrors more. Once I was taking the sweeping bend off the A1(M) at 90mph, another time I'd left a pub car park and gone up to around 80mph in a 60 zone. Fair enough, and they breathalyzed me the second time.
From my experience, most of the police are put on patrol at most of the Showground to control traffic. Truckfest just as much as BMF.
I got pulled over two times by the local police in total, and to be fair I was making good progress each time. The worst they did was give me a producer and told me to use my mirrors more. Once I was taking the sweeping bend off the A1(M) at 90mph, another time I'd left a pub car park and gone up to around 80mph in a 60 zone. Fair enough, and they breathalyzed me the second time.
From my experience, most of the police are put on patrol at most of the Showground to control traffic. Truckfest just as much as BMF.
Something that's always puzzled me .... exactly why does someone want a small number plate ??? :dunno:
Duck n Dive said:
Errrr.. why do you not wear a sack ?
A sack works fine .. It does the job.. might look a tad naff in some peoples eyes of course.
Ahh.
Could it be that having a pallet / advertising hording nailed to the back of your bike is about as good as said sack in some peeps eyes ?
M
morphgarth
Guest
John, whilst I accept, to a point, your argument about ensuring some synergy between public and police priorities and the origins of the constabulary (I think Peel said "the police are the public and the public are the police" or something like that!
I do disagree with the number plate issue. Laws are set by you John. Every four years you elect the politicians who pass the laws on your behalf, it's the nature of a democracy. If you don't like the laws they pass or there policies then you dump them at the next election (there will shortly be a good example of this I think). The point is that you can't choose which laws you obey. If you do then you have to consent to the risk of getting pinched for it!
You have to look at why small number plates are illegal. Quite simply it's because they're harder to read. If you're the gulity party in a collision and make off it's less likely the victim will get your number. If you go through an ANPR camera a read is less likely. As one of my colleagues pointed out to someone, your bike gets nicked and goes through a camera and no-one will know where to find it. I know there is a fashion element but a lot of people fit them to ride like idiots with a level of impunity. Some people seem to think they're like a Klingon cloaking device.
What about headlights? WHy not put a red cover on? Looks nice on a red Bird? The law, of course, pompous that it is, insists on you having white or yellow. It's a convention that everyone understands, white on the front, red at the back, easy.
A local biker decided that this law also didn't apply to him because red looked better. Roll on to a dark summer evening with him "making progress" on an A road. Old man pulls up to T juntion, looks right sees red light. Brain tells him the only vehicle on the road is going away from him, pulls out. Dead biker. Yes the old man was at fault in law, but who contributed to this tragedy? Who is the victim? The biker, yes. His family, yes. The old man, yes, I've dealt with people who have been the "offending" party in fatal collisions. They don't recover by and large either.
We also provide Police resources for most major events to assist the traffic plan. This year there will be Glastonbury festival and Yeovilton air day in our area. Police officers in uniform will be making sure the traffic flows freely to avoid accidents. They will also look out for people breaking the law (I hope!). No doubt there will be people saying they're picking off easy targets.
Grade 2 calls 40 - 60 minutes? That covers things like "I've come home from a fortnights holiday and I've been burgled", "I've been assaulted by someone I know at the pub". These are priority, not immediate calls. Is that time that unacceptable? This is another of the dilemnas. The public have become used to demanding that the Police arrive before the phone goes down. They also demand that Police officers should be out on foot patrolling the streets.
Do some of the targets (there are none around number plates BTW, only detected crime for notifiable offences) lead to perverse insentivisation and skewed priorities. Read Sir Ronnie Flannagans report. He says it does and I don't think you'll find anyone in the Police that disagrees. Who sets them?
I do disagree with the number plate issue. Laws are set by you John. Every four years you elect the politicians who pass the laws on your behalf, it's the nature of a democracy. If you don't like the laws they pass or there policies then you dump them at the next election (there will shortly be a good example of this I think). The point is that you can't choose which laws you obey. If you do then you have to consent to the risk of getting pinched for it!
You have to look at why small number plates are illegal. Quite simply it's because they're harder to read. If you're the gulity party in a collision and make off it's less likely the victim will get your number. If you go through an ANPR camera a read is less likely. As one of my colleagues pointed out to someone, your bike gets nicked and goes through a camera and no-one will know where to find it. I know there is a fashion element but a lot of people fit them to ride like idiots with a level of impunity. Some people seem to think they're like a Klingon cloaking device.
What about headlights? WHy not put a red cover on? Looks nice on a red Bird? The law, of course, pompous that it is, insists on you having white or yellow. It's a convention that everyone understands, white on the front, red at the back, easy.
A local biker decided that this law also didn't apply to him because red looked better. Roll on to a dark summer evening with him "making progress" on an A road. Old man pulls up to T juntion, looks right sees red light. Brain tells him the only vehicle on the road is going away from him, pulls out. Dead biker. Yes the old man was at fault in law, but who contributed to this tragedy? Who is the victim? The biker, yes. His family, yes. The old man, yes, I've dealt with people who have been the "offending" party in fatal collisions. They don't recover by and large either.
We also provide Police resources for most major events to assist the traffic plan. This year there will be Glastonbury festival and Yeovilton air day in our area. Police officers in uniform will be making sure the traffic flows freely to avoid accidents. They will also look out for people breaking the law (I hope!). No doubt there will be people saying they're picking off easy targets.
Grade 2 calls 40 - 60 minutes? That covers things like "I've come home from a fortnights holiday and I've been burgled", "I've been assaulted by someone I know at the pub". These are priority, not immediate calls. Is that time that unacceptable? This is another of the dilemnas. The public have become used to demanding that the Police arrive before the phone goes down. They also demand that Police officers should be out on foot patrolling the streets.
Do some of the targets (there are none around number plates BTW, only detected crime for notifiable offences) lead to perverse insentivisation and skewed priorities. Read Sir Ronnie Flannagans report. He says it does and I don't think you'll find anyone in the Police that disagrees. Who sets them?
Rheumatoid
B.I.R.D Intellectual
I prefer 'De Babylon'!morphgarth said:
R.
Morpy ... I think you're argument is a tad too simplistic ......
And John ... sorry ... I knew someone would bite!!
See the small number plate is either one of two reason ... fashion as you say or to try and avoid detection as Morphy says ....... personally I can understand the fashion one and have some sympathy .. although I've never bothered as I can't be arsed with the hassle it might cause.
As for the "simplistic" reasoning that we get the laws we vote for .... sorry but that just doesn't hold water mate......
We get the laws that the establishment decides it wants ... and the reasons for those can be various from crime fighting/reduction ... ease of doing something, reduced expenditure or social engineering.
Elections are decided on major issues ... not the detail of minor laws/regulations etc..... if a local MP wants your vote and will do somehting about the local schools/health service/policing etc. then you'll vote for him ... even if he thinks bikers ought to have number plates 10ft wide ... as the other issues are of far more consequence to society.
Thus politicians/civil servants are able to introduce laws/regulations (and these days more like statutory instruments - which mean no debate/discussion/agreement) that fit their purpose.
The policing debate will no doubt go on and on and on and on and on .....
My personal pet hate is the stupid reduction of speed limits that's appearing everywhere. The national limit is being eroded down to 50mpph wherever you turn. There's no debate/discussion/agreement - it just gets done.
Those that argue in favour use the simplistic "it's safer" argument. I don;t agree with that... it's more complex. Of course if we all didn't do more than 5 mph and someone walked in front of us with a red flag it wold be safer!!
Fact is accidents happen ... if someone has an accident we shold be looking at the real cause.
Take my pet soap box of the Cat & Fiddle roads ..... blanket 50 MPH limit even where the main road is better than the single track side roads with a 60mph limit !!!
Why is this .. it's cause some numpty's who can't control themselves and their machines come off and injure themselves. The problem is not the limit it's the numpty's and that's what should be tackled.
Meanwhile if I were to exceed the 50 mph limit I'd risk prosecution even though I could legally do that speed on a more unsafe road!!
The "cure" for any problem needs to be commensurate with the "risk" otherwise folks will question it and you eventually get unrest.
The health service has programs of innoculation for various things - but only those where the risk from not doing it is assessed as being high.
We don't all get told we must take a bunch of pills each day to keep colestrol/blood pressure/reduce risk of weils disease etc. 'cause it doesn't make sense to treat everyone for the problem afflicting the few.
The real danger at the moment that I see (both industry & govt etc) is that we are rapidly losing "corporate memory" ... what most folks would call "job knowledge".
With the fashion for "rapidly changing to react", "competency" based management etc we are losing sight of the long and hard learned lessons of our forbears (of even fozzy bear!). We now have to measure everything and only devote time to those things that can be measured.
This is a indication to me of weak management and ill thought through policies.
If you look at policing we can see that the key measures seem to be detection rates for notifiable crimes ... wonderful sentiment but what does it achieve in reality ???
It means that there's little incentive to deter crime by having "bobbies on the beat" as it's put.
Fact is the general population is not actually that daft after all ... it's understood that having police officers nearby or visually present/active reduces crime.
The public are more interested in stopping it happening in the first place rather than "detecting" it once the damage has been done.
Now there are all sorts of things about can we afford it etc... but that's just avoiding the issue. Personally I'd reduce MP's salary and expenses to pay for that !!
And John ... sorry ... I knew someone would bite!!
See the small number plate is either one of two reason ... fashion as you say or to try and avoid detection as Morphy says ....... personally I can understand the fashion one and have some sympathy .. although I've never bothered as I can't be arsed with the hassle it might cause.
As for the "simplistic" reasoning that we get the laws we vote for .... sorry but that just doesn't hold water mate......
We get the laws that the establishment decides it wants ... and the reasons for those can be various from crime fighting/reduction ... ease of doing something, reduced expenditure or social engineering.
Elections are decided on major issues ... not the detail of minor laws/regulations etc..... if a local MP wants your vote and will do somehting about the local schools/health service/policing etc. then you'll vote for him ... even if he thinks bikers ought to have number plates 10ft wide ... as the other issues are of far more consequence to society.
Thus politicians/civil servants are able to introduce laws/regulations (and these days more like statutory instruments - which mean no debate/discussion/agreement) that fit their purpose.
The policing debate will no doubt go on and on and on and on and on .....
My personal pet hate is the stupid reduction of speed limits that's appearing everywhere. The national limit is being eroded down to 50mpph wherever you turn. There's no debate/discussion/agreement - it just gets done.
Those that argue in favour use the simplistic "it's safer" argument. I don;t agree with that... it's more complex. Of course if we all didn't do more than 5 mph and someone walked in front of us with a red flag it wold be safer!!
Fact is accidents happen ... if someone has an accident we shold be looking at the real cause.
Take my pet soap box of the Cat & Fiddle roads ..... blanket 50 MPH limit even where the main road is better than the single track side roads with a 60mph limit !!!
Why is this .. it's cause some numpty's who can't control themselves and their machines come off and injure themselves. The problem is not the limit it's the numpty's and that's what should be tackled.
Meanwhile if I were to exceed the 50 mph limit I'd risk prosecution even though I could legally do that speed on a more unsafe road!!
The "cure" for any problem needs to be commensurate with the "risk" otherwise folks will question it and you eventually get unrest.
The health service has programs of innoculation for various things - but only those where the risk from not doing it is assessed as being high.
We don't all get told we must take a bunch of pills each day to keep colestrol/blood pressure/reduce risk of weils disease etc. 'cause it doesn't make sense to treat everyone for the problem afflicting the few.
The real danger at the moment that I see (both industry & govt etc) is that we are rapidly losing "corporate memory" ... what most folks would call "job knowledge".
With the fashion for "rapidly changing to react", "competency" based management etc we are losing sight of the long and hard learned lessons of our forbears (of even fozzy bear!). We now have to measure everything and only devote time to those things that can be measured.
This is a indication to me of weak management and ill thought through policies.
If you look at policing we can see that the key measures seem to be detection rates for notifiable crimes ... wonderful sentiment but what does it achieve in reality ???
It means that there's little incentive to deter crime by having "bobbies on the beat" as it's put.
Fact is the general population is not actually that daft after all ... it's understood that having police officers nearby or visually present/active reduces crime.
The public are more interested in stopping it happening in the first place rather than "detecting" it once the damage has been done.
Now there are all sorts of things about can we afford it etc... but that's just avoiding the issue. Personally I'd reduce MP's salary and expenses to pay for that !!