Why the change of tune?

[noobie]

Why do you dismis these people as "nothing more" than "economic migrants"?

Because Da most of them are nothing more than economic migrants playing the asylum card thinking no one will turn them down if they do.

What do you consider to be the root of a problem that causes people to risk death to desert their places of residence in search of a better life?

At what point death? Again your assumption is they are all at risk at some point, mine is they are not

I tend not to comment on international socio-political matters, especially on a bike forum, but 6 million people "on the move" (conceivably as a direct result of the actions of MY government and its allies) has caught my attention.

I would be interested where the 6 million came from and "our government" claim given we have nothing to do with the sudan, ethiopia, eritrea, somalia, sub saharan africans including nigeria and kenya. O wait we have had an involvement, we have been sending them financial aid since the 70's

My wife and I have been obliged to alter our travel arrangements for our French vacation next month, due to the reported "migrant activity". Why do you think these people are "on the move" simply to tread the "streets of gold" of europe?

For most, yes. They will have been told this mostly by people trafickers but despite being destitute still manage to find several thousand dollars each to be transported and the old asylum claim,

Asylum is to the first safe country and if you are genuinely at risk then the first is more than good enough. After that it becomes which country would you like to be in which is not asylum at all

I will add, these are not asylum seekers but simply queue jumpers. We welcome migrants who go through the required checks, standards, application forms etc..but these lot are nothing other than queue jumpers

 

[Dark Angel]

Because Da most of them are nothing more than economic migrants playing the asylum card thinking no one will turn them down if they do.

How desperate must one be to travel nearly 3,500 miles across land and sea in search of financial, political, religious and racial security? No doubt, the majority of these people are decent, hard-working folk but, inevitably, the dregs of their different societies will be among them.

At what point death? Again your assumption is they are all at risk at some point, mine is they are not

No-one gets to travel for free - they all have to pay to get on a rusting, stinking, leaking hulk – usually without sufficient food or water – in sanitary conditions that mean your neighbour is much more likely, quite literally, to piss on you than to engage in a topical conversation about where you’d like to work and live when you get to England.

The death toll figures speak for themselves.

I would be interested where the 6 million came from and "our government" claim given we have nothing to do with the sudan, ethiopia, eritrea, somalia, sub saharan africans including nigeria and kenya. O wait we have had an involvement, we have been sending them financial aid since the 70's

Look at the UN figures on migration – six million is just the tip of the iceberg; and we have more to do with the plight of Africa and the Middle East than is generally articulated.

... despite being destitute still manage to find several thousand dollars each to be transported and the old asylum claim, Asylum is to the first safe country and if you are genuinely at risk then the first is more than good enough. After that it becomes which country would you like to be in which is not asylum at all

I will add, these are not asylum seekers but simply queue jumpers. We welcome migrants who go through the required checks, standards, application forms etc..but these lot are nothing other than queue jumpers

Putting it another way; these people are willing to sell all of their possessions – everything – because they fear for their lives. They feel so persecuted they believe their only safe haven is 3,500 miles away. If they don’t leave – they will be killed. Even to me, that sounds unreasonable - until I remind myself of the Holocaust; the Kurdish Genocide of the 1980’s; and the 100,000+ Iraqi troops, massacred on the road to Basra on the orders of George Bush and Tony Blair.

By their actions, the government of our country – and those of others – sought to impose their will, not only upon Iraq and Iran, but also upon the whole of Africa and the Middle East.

Now, we reap what was sown.

The answer to the migratory surge? There isn't one - what's needed is a solution, a strategy of even greater complexity than the War Strategy which, once implemented, served only to exacerbate the potential for the human misery that exists today in Africa and the Middle East.

 

[noobie]

I'm sorry but much of your argument is incorrect.

Much of our immigration involves people getting here not through calais and under busses and trucks but direct through airoplanes and ferries.

Your working on assumptions that every single one comes from a war torn country, this would be incorrect. There is a good reason they either hide or dispose of all identity and much of it will be because most do NOT come from war torn areas as they are telling immigration they do.

The two year old link you sent was enlightening and if correct, we have already accepted over 7 million? so could you highlight for me the 6 million claim?

In regard to Africa actually the French and Dutch have more to do with it than us and smacks of historical obligation from centuries ago...If that argument was accepted we should all be living in Italy...emotive poppycock from people who make future decisions based on historic past

Africa like the Middle East is very much tribal, no matter how much money you throw at it and who does it, they will always revert to killing each other and NO foreign country has ever been able to stop them.

I notice you fail to mention those who are playing by the rules, apply, jump through hoops so we can see they are genuine and safe to allow in and pay for those proceedures. How do you think they should feel watching all these others getting in illegally whilst they play by the rules and wait?

Also you do not mention asylum, asylum is the first safe country and not pick a pin and stick it on a map of where you would like to go this week.

Could I ask you views on those? because those once again in our society those who play by the rules are being ignored whilst those who do NOt play by the rules are getting the help, for free and at ours and the legal applicants exspense.

 

[Saffie]

Well Said Dark Angel.

To add something more current onto the list of people being persecuted in today's society.

White South Africans, yup they the other Zimbabweans(same continent different country

At the moment South Africa is suffering White genocide, but to all us good folk we will only know about the Lion that got killed.

Google white genocide south africa, then while you at it google white farm murders in south africa, then white squatter camps in south africa then ANC passes law to stop white people getting work, then land reform act.....I totally sympathize with the people fearing for their lives. I am one of the fortunate ones to have a German dad and still having access to ancestral visas, but what about my friends, my other family and my mom???

There is not a day that goes past that I fear hearing my mom has been killed, I tried getting her here and looking after her, but according to British policies I do not earn enough money to take care of my mom. I have brilliant friends back home that would kill for a decent job, the right to live life in peace and to be able to provide food on the table. My heart dies for my country seeing what a great place is turning to shit.

So now I know a few people in Britain who have read Nelson Mandela long walk to freedom immediately knows everything about south Africa and feels we deserve what we are getting.

Just to put things into context:
In 1992 there was a vote to abolish apartheid, this vote was done by the whites being killed and persecuted today. We did not like the apartheid laws, we all had friends from different race groups that we couldnt visit after dark. Apartheid was dead long before we voted it out of the law books.
Nelson Mandela bombed restaurants and innocent woman and children not government installations, I recall the IRA did the same and were labelled terrorists. He was sent to jail after the Rivonia trials again a good read.

So as a immigrant seeking a better life I understand their plight, as a tax payer I see the UK's plight. I am also fed up of seeing money going to non-deserving people and foreigners being given houses and benefits without ever having contributed.

Sadly some of those people interviewed said we heard England gives free houses and money for no work that's why we come... so not all of them wants to be a contributing factor.

I have never asked for handouts and work and pay my bills and I am truly thankful for the chance to be treated fairly and earn my living and sleep safe at night so for those who wants this I cant be against them as there is plenty of jobs out there, sadly as the immigrants taking our jobs seems to always pop up, unskilled jobs, skilled jobs?

Unfortunately I do not know how many more innocent people have to die before the rest of the world gets involved helping the south africans, apparently one lion is all thats needed to make the headlines for now.
Mhulungu go back from where you come africa is for the africans.(Muhlungu is the white foam you see wash up on the beaches after a storm) The majority would leave to be safe and be able to look after their families, but cant so have no option but to wait and see if they will be alive tomorrow.

So to all you folk lucky enough to be born in a place where if you work hard you can succeed, where you do not fear for your life, where you have a warm bed and electricity all the time, be thankful that you live in a place where others only dream about living.
s04pb0x6

 

[Centaur]

Thank you, Saffie.

A moving and thought provoking post. We don't get many of those. :bow:

 

[Dark Angel]

I'm sorry but much of your argument is incorrect.

Much of our immigration involves people getting here not through calais and under busses and trucks but direct through airoplanes and ferries.

Your working on assumptions that every single one comes from a war torn country, this would be incorrect. There is a good reason they either hide or dispose of all identity and much of it will be because most do NOT come from war torn areas as they are telling immigration they do.

Don?t apologise to me, Noobie ? it?s the United Nations and world governments you should be advising, not I. All I?ve done is refer to them as a source of information.

People want to better themselves for various reasons, some of which I mentioned earlier, eg ?financial, political, religious and racial security? and to which I suppose I should add ?quality of life?. At no stage did I suggest that each and every one of them comes from a war-torn country.

The two year old link you sent was enlightening and if correct, we have already accepted over 7 million? so could you highlight for me the 6 million claim?

Again, I refer you to the United Nations if you wish to validate those figures. If you wish to search for the latest statistics, please do so.

In regard to Africa actually the French and Dutch have more to do with it than us and smacks of historical obligation from centuries ago...If that argument was accepted we should all be living in Italy...emotive poppycock from people who make future decisions based on historic past

Emotive poppycock? Future decisions (decisions providing guidance for future behaviours) are usually relevant to "historic past", if you think about it.

Africa like the Middle East is very much tribal, no matter how much money you throw at it and who does it, they will always revert to killing each other and NO foreign country has ever been able to stop them.

I notice you fail to mention those who are playing by the rules, apply, jump through hoops so we can see they are genuine and safe to allow in and pay for those proceedures. How do you think they should feel watching all these others getting in illegally whilst they play by the rules and wait?

Also you do not mention asylum, asylum is the first safe country and not pick a pin and stick it on a map of where you would like to go this week.

Not mentioning ?those who are playing by the rules? or their potential emotional state wasn?t a ?failure? on my part ? they are not the focal point of this discussion ? which is illegal entry to the UK.

Could I ask you views on those? because those once again in our society those who play by the rules are being ignored whilst those who do NOt play by the rules are getting the help, for free and at ours and the legal applicants exspense.

Yes, you could ask - but I see no value in offering my extended views on a global problem that I have neither the knowledge, nor the power, as an individual, to solve.

 

[Cougar377]

Regardless of whether you have sympathy for these people or not there is one simple fact that won't go away and will only get worse....

This country has the highest density of people per square kilometre in Europe, and that is taking into account the wilder parts of Wales, Northern England and the Highlands.
It's a proven fact that if you increase population density you increase the social problems within those areas. We've already got enough homegrown troubles in that area, as Boggymarsh mentioned in his earlier post.

Mix in the resentment towards these people that exists and will continue to grow (whether genuine or stoked up by the press). Add in the fact that a significant number of these migrants are muslims, throw in a ghetto or two , chuck in few popup mosques, let UKIP loose in alliance with the BNP et al and it isn't going to end well.

Enoch Powell's "rivers of blood" speech might just come true after all.

 

[noobie]

My issue with all of this is how society is becoming

Once again we see some bleeding hearts demanding that those carrying out illegal acts should be supported whilst those who are using the system correctly are completely ignored.

Imagine you were one of those who Were doing it properly, being patient, submitting your history so we can see if your a danger to us, you pay for those services and you open up your paper and see from Italy to a b&b in Kent and recieving money in 7 days. How would you feel? Where is the incentive to do things the right way?

With no checks at all the security services have said that isis are smuggling in operatives and sleeper cells into the illegal migrants because they know they will end up in a European country where they cannot be checked but can turn hearts and minds with their vile extremisms.

If you look at this simply as people trying to get in then you miss the point. Resources, safety of our country, it's future, an increase in extremism, attacks on the uk are all more likely and I would suggest when rather than if, are very much part of the picture.

By all means apply to come in instead of thinking you can kick our door down then demand rights.

Just another example of a minority tail wagging the dog whilst calling out the majority if they dare say , hey this isn't right.

I will say it. Unless you were born in France(and who could blame them for wanting to leave) then we should not accept a single asylum seeker as we are not the first safe country in accordance with the 1951 Geneva Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees

Ban all asylum seeker applications for the U.K. and then rigerously enforce admissions only from those who have gone through the application process.

 

[DLN1965]

Interesting points made by many ...

I enclose a link ... Albeit from a few years ago .. Which may indicate why the Asylum seekers want to stay in England .....

Warning this isn't work or children friendly !

http://youtu.be/ACEErbD8WPE

PS ....I do not support this persons views or opinions or use of crude language ... I'm NOT a fan of this person either !!!!

But listen ... And sing along with the song !

 

[ianrobbo1]

Been to see him loads of times, met him privately a fair few as well, a very funny and nice man, and it is actually an act, he does a lot for charities, though funnily enough no on seems to want to publish that bit!! :dunno:

 

[DLN1965]

Been to see him loads of times, met him privately a fair few as well, a very funny and nice man, and it is actually an act, he does a lot for charities, though funnily enough no on seems to want to publish that bit!! :dunno:

That's very very true !!!
Roysten Vasey a true gentleman ..was brought up in Grangetown near Southbank in Middlesbrough ... Near my parents .... And I knew a few of his Vasey relatives from school . Has done a lot for charity in and around the area !
It is just an act ... And like many performers needs to get into character before a show !!

A program on TV years ago Roysten went to his house were he grew up ...
Out come the current residents family, one of whom wearing shorts, tattooed and bare chested was security tagged on the leg...
Roysten did comment that the area hadn't changed but was glad to have got out!

Roysten Vasey is the name of the village in league of gentleman sketches .... Named after the aforementioned comedian !!!

 

[noobie]

There is one other thing this relates to when you look beyond just the current illegal economic migrant crisis.

What impact do you think all this will have when the Euro in or out referendum happens?

 

[ianrobbo1]

Of course it's all a smoke screen, with stuff like this you have to look around and see what "other" things are going on that don't get the publicity, the sneaky bastards often do it, in fact wasn't a "minister" given the boot because she pointed it out that it was policy?? :dunno:

 

[derek kelly]

Chubby brown is a cock end.

 

[Barrie]

Chubby brown is a cock end.

Have to agree Derek. His act is not funny by any standards.

 

[Boggymarsh]

Today, my wife and I visited the Imperial War Museum in London as she wanted to see the "Fashion on a Ration" exhibition, which I must admit was very interesting.

We had wondered around the museum for a couple of hours before ending our visit in the section for The Holocaust. It starts with how Hitler came to power and how the Nazi party came to affect the lives of so many and so on. The further you walked, the darker and more horrific the displays became. The images of men, women and children being hunted down, rounded up and in the case of many being sent to their death, all because of one man, his ideologies and the thousands who either were true followers and believers or those who acquiesced to save themselves from the violence they themselves might have faced had they not joined in.

I have seen the pictures and the film footage of survivors talking about their lives under that regime before but there was one small section amongst the many articles on display that caught my eye. It was a map and an explanation of how tens of thousands of Jews started to flee Europe in order to save themselves from the Nazi death squads. I immediately saw this mass migration was what we are seeing today, all because of an ideology that was and is being followed by a group of believers. It was interesting to see on the map how many came to the UK, how many went to America and Australia, amongst other countries. It ran into significant numbers and probably akin to the numbers seen fleeing areas currently affected by the rash of Islamic State and associated fanatical groups.

I made comment to my wife about this and she promptly returned the comment of how the people of our world had clearly failed to prevent such atrocity happening again, not only in this current rampage but also back during the Balkens war and many other conflicts.

Each time there is conflict there is a dispersal of people who are either fleeing because of direct persecution or because their homeland is being ripped to pieces by the warring factions. In short, it is nothing new, it is something we have dealt with before and something we will deal with again.

 

[Cougar377]

If the Euro Tunnel had been built a couple of thousand years ago we'd no doubt be talking about benefit grabbin' Gauls fleeing the Romans instead...

Frightening thought, eh...? 8rfl@

 

[Pow-Lo]

Today, my wife and I visited the Imperial War Museum in London as she wanted to see the "Fashion on a Ration" exhibition, which I must admit was very interesting.

We had wondered around the museum for a couple of hours before ending our visit in the section for The Holocaust. It starts with how Hitler came to power and how the Nazi party came to affect the lives of so many and so on. The further you walked, the darker and more horrific the displays became. The images of men, women and children being hunted down, rounded up and in the case of many being sent to their death, all because of one man, his ideologies and the thousands who either were true followers and believers or those who acquiesced to save themselves from the violence they themselves might have faced had they not joined in.

I have seen the pictures and the film footage of survivors talking about their lives under that regime before but there was one small section amongst the many articles on display that caught my eye. It was a map and an explanation of how tens of thousands of Jews started to flee Europe in order to save themselves from the Nazi death squads. I immediately saw this mass migration was what we are seeing today, all because of an ideology that was and is being followed by a group of believers. It was interesting to see on the map how many came to the UK, how many went to America and Australia, amongst other countries. It ran into significant numbers and probably akin to the numbers seen fleeing areas currently affected by the rash of Islamic State and associated fanatical groups.

I made comment to my wife about this and she promptly returned the comment of how the people of our world had clearly failed to prevent such atrocity happening again, not only in this current rampage but also back during the Balkens war and many other conflicts.

Each time there is conflict there is a dispersal of people who are either fleeing because of direct persecution or because their homeland is being ripped to pieces by the warring factions. In short, it is nothing new, it is something we have dealt with before and something we will deal with again.

Still doesn't explain why the illegal immigrants choose to invade Britain instead of stopping at the first safe point of entry when they reach in Euroland.

 

[derek kelly]

Regardless of our feelings & sympathies for the genuinely oppressed our little island is not big enough to sustain the amount of immigrants flooding (not trickling) in, as Bev puts it "you can't fit a size 18 woman into a size 10 dress"

 

[DLN1965]

If the Euro Tunnel had been built a couple of thousand years ago .........

We would have bricked it up and flooded it by now ??:dunno: