Please help I am at my wits end

[traffic273]

Hi Guys.

I have a 2000XXY Bird which has been blinking code 25 = knock sensor since I purchased it 3 years ago. I checked with you guys, other forums (not so good) and my local robbing dealer. All stated that they have never changed a KS before and the fault wouldn't be that, so I left it. Along with the 25 blinks, the bike seems to over fuel via rich fumes and soot at the tail end. I am running a set of "Fuel" cans and the problem was there with my previous stock end cans. I have checked the operation of the FUel Pressure Regulator which is fine (no drips of fuel from the vacuum side) and I replaced the plugs and air filter. The bike is still over fuelling and the KS flicked on again, I am also getting a reduction in acceleration now with the fuel smell.

Could it be a faulty throttle position sensor, another sensor or is it the dreaded KS?









Please help guys, I am seriously frustrated now

Please help Guys I am loosing it now

 

[bmwdumptruck]

Don't panic, clive (silverfox) will be along in a mo, he had the same a little while back IIRC.

In fact if you search for his threads you'll find it. Sure he fixed his in the end.

 

[traffic273]

Thanks BMW

 

[silverfox.xx]

Morning chap, thats 8 of us that I know of....

Lookie here; http://www.bikersoracle.com/blackbird/forum/showthread.php?t=51145

Read through it, let me know and I may be able to put you on to a second hand ECM. cwroper@hotmail.co.uk

On and welcome to the bird nest. @tu*

 

[traffic273]

Thanks Silverfox. I gotta tell you, this is the best site for answers and politeness that I have found. I will check out the article and get back to you. Thanks again.

 

[Pugwash]

politeness

I must have been reading the wrong threads!

 

[traffic273]

Oh Silverfox fogot the say. After changing the air filter and plugs on Friday and clearing the KS code down I took the bike for a hard 60 mile ride today, maxing out at 10000 rpm. No fault code and the bird flew. Do you think the filter and plug change could have cured the fault, the filter was hanging? Also I did the loom fix 2 years ago. I want to double check everything and I'm interested in the KS earth. Where do you solder the earth wire exactly at the KS end, I don't quite understand the screened side?
Also did your KS fault code flash every time you hit 3000rpm?
Just on a side note, I read on another forum that the ECU should be seated on foam and secured with the rubber band, have you heard this before? I secured mine with soft double sided foam tape because it was bouncing around the tail section unsecured with a padlock on top, just a thought really.
Thanks buddy for your help.

 

[noobie]

I wonder if the fault was being caused by the ecu bouncing around?

 

[silverfox.xx]

Oh Silverfox fogot the say. After changing the air filter and plugs on Friday and clearing the KS code down I took the bike for a hard 60 mile ride today, maxing out at 10000 rpm. No fault code and the bird flew. Do you think the filter and plug change could have cured the fault, the filter was hanging? Also I did the loom fix 2 years ago. I want to double check everything and I'm interested in the KS earth. Where do you solder the earth wire exactly at the KS end, I don't quite understand the screened side?
Also did your KS fault code flash every time you hit 3000rpm?
Just on a side note, I read on another forum that the ECU should be seated on foam and secured with the rubber band, have you heard this before? I secured mine with soft double sided foam tape because it was bouncing around the tail section unsecured with a padlock on top, just a thought really.
Thanks buddy for your help.

I hope for you're sake it was a simple cure. If the ECM is playing up the KS code 25 will always come on between 3000 and 6000 rpm, anywhere out side this will not induce a KS fault providing you get to 6000rpm + quickly after start up.
There have been occurrences where the fault is intermittent initially, but as you've changed something and its gone away immediately you could be lucky. So far only one KS fault reported on BIRD was actually the KS itself, I have a spare KS for BIRD members to borrow if suspect.

It could well be your KS fault was caused by loose fitted ECM, ECM should be strapped down with a rubber 'band' the same as the tool role, plastic hooks in the tail for this. I have since my problem mounted mine on 5mm neoprene just in case, and strapped it down to prevent movement. Also any knock detected by the KS (incorrect detonation) could have caused the KS fault code so yes it is possible that an incorrect seated air filter and naff plugs gave the cause. Really hope so for you its cheaper that way.

The screen/braid around the KS wire on early non cat injection models 99 to 01/02 was never earthed, on cat 02 onwards it was. Were they aware of a potential problem?. I replaced the whole wire from ECM to KS to eliminate that fault as one Honda mechanic said he did this and cured a persistent code 25 fault. However as standard OE under the tank there is a plastic boot covering several connectors (rear left of engine) the single unscreened wire from the KS wire is joined in a connector here from the ECM, once you locate it, you will find the actual wire from ECM to connector has the end of the sheath taped up, this is the hidden screen/braid (same thing on the ECM end). You can earth either end. I earthed this screen as per 2002> bikes. Simple job, the screen is soldered to a wire then taped back up, and this wire I strapped to the multi earth point on the frame located under the very rear LH side of the tank. The single wire from the KS to the connector is not screened, I suppose that could be earthed also but thats not shown on 2002> models. After I did mine it made naff all difference to my fault code 25. :bang:

When mine had the KS ECM generated fault, once the KS fault code came up the engine sounded like a bag of nails, rough, uneven, slight loss of power. Interesting point was several who had the KS fault continued to use their bikes for many years with no known engine damage, (I even taped my F1 warning light over and went touring Derbyshire), but once a new ECM was fitted it really was like having a new engine.

The KS ECM fault may not be the KS or that side of the ECM in actual fact, it appears that the ECM sends a signal to check the engine management systems, if it does not get back the preprogrammed signals it reverts the engine management to 'safe' mode, and I suspect the KS fault comes up as its the first one or last one it does a system check on.. Only honda know, and they'll not help.

this is the best site for answers and politeness that I have found.

:-0) Early days yet. @tu*

 

[traffic273]

Thanks Silverfox good reply! I have just sat there on the bird holding the revs at 4000rpm for a minute or so, no light. The jury is still at mind you. Did your bird smell strong/over fuel at the exhaust. Mine still stinks and after the 60 mile run today, the cans look a little sooty. What year can I go upto regarding an ECM and chip change, mine is a 2000 XXY model? I wonder if the cause of the 25 blink is caused by my ECM not being secured properly? I have basically done what you did mate and sat it on nice comfy soft foam LOL. We shall see.

By the way guys I am a TVP Police Motorcyclist (I know ride crappy BMWs and wish for the pan to come back). At the bottom of my signature I have included the safer rider web site that I run the maintaince page on. Please take the time to check the site out, I require honest feedback because the management team at Thames Valley Police are in to minds weather it is worth maintaing the site. Crazy mofos, anything that helps with rider safety is a good thing isn't it.

Thanks any Silverfox, you have been a star!

 

[TANK0700]

this is the best site for politeness that I have found. .

TIME I MOVED ON THEN, Politeness , you not met MKT then :-0)

 

[silverfox.xx]

Thanks Silverfox good reply! I have just sat there on the bird holding the revs at 4000rpm for a minute or so, no light. The jury is still at mind you. Did your bird smell strong/over fuel at the exhaust. Mine still stinks and after the 60 mile run today, the cans look a little sooty. What year can I go upto regarding an ECM and chip change, mine is a 2000 XXY model? I wonder if the cause of the 25 blink is caused by my ECM not being secured properly? I have basically done what you did mate and sat it on nice comfy soft foam LOL. We shall see.

By the way guys I am a TVP Police Motorcyclist (I know ride crappy BMWs and wish for the pan to come back). At the bottom of my signature I have included the safer rider web site that I run the maintaince page on. Please take the time to check the site out, I require honest feedback because the management team at Thames Valley Police are in to minds weather it is worth maintaing the site. Crazy mofos, anything that helps with rider safety is a good thing isn't it.

Thanks any Silverfox, you have been a star!

You're welcome. Mines and XXY 2000 model also, now on 50k miles, about 46k miles when ECM went phutt.
From cold they run a little rich, but lean out at higher revs. Rich running can also be due to dirty air filter but you've done that. The ends of silencers non cat birds on OE cans tend to go a tad brown, but not sooty. If you have custom cans it may run a little richer or not.

What miles to a tank are you getting to red light, I get on average 150, now up to 160 with a clean filter/ECM change. about 41mpg.

ECM from any pre cat injection, I believe you can also fit one from the cat version but you'd need to alter the harness plug connections and fit a lambda sensor eliminator.

if you've held the bike even at/above 3200 rpm and you have not had the KS come up, I think you'll be ok. Mine was within 30 seconds of hitting 3k. If in doubt, find someone with a 99/2002 non cat injection and borrow their ECM, wrap your ignition key in silver foil and tape theirs to the side to fool the HISS, you'll know if you ECM is caputt immediatly as the engine will sound so much smoother.

There's a few police occifers on here, so we won't hold that against you. :-0)

Safe riding a good thing to promote, recently did a local enhanced motorcyclist challenge (Hugger challenge, Norfolk council/police approved)
Having not had any further bike training since I passed my test in the 70's, I was pleased I passed after being back on bikes for 8 years...
The comments I got from the guy who assessed me was, they all think they can ride, but very few actually reach an acceptable standard. Going on that info, its an uphill battle, might pay to contact different areas like Norfolk to see their approach methods/advertising etc. I picked my 'Hugger' leaflet up at Snetterton BSB from a police stand.

10,000 rpm you max'd out you said in a previous post... ah must have been first gear then!!!!!! g0551pon a motorway... we have speed limits you know.

 

[Jaws]

Site looks and reads really well Traffic.. Anything we can do to guide the misguided who question its value, just shout

BTW, hate to say it but if you reckon a lardy Pan can out manoeuvre a BM...... wellllllllllll.. thats just fighting talk ! LOL !! ( Mind you, must admit I have sometimes struggled with slow riding with the boxer.. )

 

[traffic273]

Thanks Guys.

John nice to speak to you, I think one of my Office guys tried to contact you a while ago to speak about my maintainance page. By the way your store is so helpfull when I purchased a few bits for my Bird. Great service@tu*

Silverfox I get about 155 Miles to a tank before the light comes on. I think thats about average for an injected early bird. Just want to ride it to make sure the KS fault code doesnt fire back up again. Have we proved if the bike goes into safe mode when the FI light comes on? When mine did before I secured the ECM, the bike dropped power as if it was flooding. After turning the ignition off, the FI light goes out, do you think the ECM is still in safe and needs resetting or do you think the ECM reverts back to the normal map? I ask this question because the last time the FI came on (KS fault), I reset it using the connection in the tail section and the bike rode really well. It is so annoying, am almost willing the FI light to come on again, so I can then get another ECM, crazy I know. This fault has been with my bike for over two years now and is getting to me. If it had been any other bike I would have changed it but I can't live without my "Bird":dunno:

 

[silverfox.xx]

Thanks Guys.

John nice to speak to you, I think one of my Office guys tried to contact you a while ago to speak about my maintainance page. By the way your store is so helpfull when I purchased a few bits for my Bird. Great service@tu*

Silverfox I get about 155 Miles to a tank before the light comes on. I think thats about average for an injected early bird. Just want to ride it to make sure the KS fault code doesnt fire back up again. Have we proved if the bike goes into safe mode when the FI light comes on? When mine did before I secured the ECM, the bike dropped power as if it was flooding. After turning the ignition off, the FI light goes out, do you think the ECM is still in safe and needs resetting or do you think the ECM reverts back to the normal map? I ask this question because the last time the FI came on (KS fault), I reset it using the connection in the tail section and the bike rode really well. It is so annoying, am almost willing the FI light to come on again, so I can then get another ECM, crazy I know. This fault has been with my bike for over two years now and is getting to me. If it had been any other bike I would have changed it but I can't live without my "Bird":dunno:

Yes to reset the fault codes you need to link the connector in the tail piece in the required sequence. Can you borrow an ECM?.
The ECM is programmed to revert to safe mode if it detects certain faults, mostly sensor faults. With an injection or fuel fault you would not be able to start the engine.

As an aside, if the F1 light comes on while the engine is still running you can get the fault codes flash up by kicking the side stand down, out of gear of course.

If its a repeat fault I'd plumb for ECM, however if you want to borrow a KS you're welcome.

 

[bmwdumptruck]

Traffic, mr woods of your Parrish did both my original Iam test and senior observer test. Do you know Rod Hardie at MK? Would we have met you about there on any of his better riding things?

 

[traffic273]

Thanks for the offer Clive.

I think if it comes on again it has to be the ECM. I don't have one to swop over to test. Where is the best place (cheapest and reliable) to get one with the key chips. eBay is all well and good for some items but not for an ECM I feel.

I will keep you guys posted on my progress but I would like to know where to get an ECM in case.

 

[traffic273]

I have heard the name BMW but I don't know him personally. When on duty on a Sunday morning I often nip over to Wokingham and meet the IAM guys, a good bunch.

 

[taffy]

Thanks for the offer Clive.

I think if it comes on again it has to be the ECM. I don't have one to swop over to test. Where is the best place (cheapest and reliable) to get one with the key chips. eBay is all well and good for some items but not for an ECM I feel.

I will keep you guys posted on my progress but I would like to know where to get an ECM in case.

traffic,

I have sent you an email mate.

Taff.

 

[traffic273]

Thanks Taff will check it out now. You guys are so helpful, you need a law question answered or a Police matter aired just shout!