oil change dilemna

[karlos2000]

I use olive oil ...... it's only ?12 a change if you buy the cheaper Spanish extra virgin from Sainsburys .......

 

[smedly]

I guess it's what ever you choose and are happy with, I wouldn't really have an issue using semi synth but the FS I use is designed for motorbikes and doesn't have friction modifiers and stuff like that which would cause issues with clutch etc I guess it's just a legacy of always putting the best in my engines, I might try the semi next oil change and go for a 20/50 oil instead of 10/40 which would be better suited to my climate, each to their own I guess, I just completed a 1500 mile round trip and had no issues whatsoever, not arguing against or for either just sharing my own experience.

 

[the_sad_punk]

ahhhhh the bitter burning smell of a good old oil thread 'debate'. As kilgore would say, 'smells like, ...victory'

Smedly, you and others testify to using fully synth with no issues, fair enough. Others have used it and have had issues.
Myself? Being of humble mental stock and not fit to wipe the arse of a oil development chemist I tend to err on the side of caution and use 1040 semi which change every year or 4000 miles. I have a sneaking suspicion that this may be the way to go, despite my lame brain.

Imo you are at best your spending extra pesos with an oil that outperforms the requirements of the motor, or at worse your possibly hurting the motor, but alas i am not fit to wipe the arse of a oil development chemist so...
This aside, if its working for you and you are aware of the 'facts' (as they read at least) then game ball.

There is a lot of toss about oil banted about, especially on this site, even by John who vehemently preached it was bad to change the oil with lower mileage frequency. It was very bad in fact he said.
Even little me who being of humble mental stock and not fit to wipe the arse of a oil development chemist had a feeling this was wrong.
In fairness to John when someone chimed in on the debate who indeed was fit to wipe his own arse on the topic he quoted the man.

http://www.bikersoracle.com/blackbi...?t=46575&highlight=oil+change+interval&page=2

By the by, i have huge respect for Johns contribution, his business and especially his ecumen, which at all times is both in the first person and first class.

So what my point? 'Accepted wisdoms' like the above should be challenged but genuine experience and findings should not be ignored. Smedly, you are probably the type owner who cherishes his bike and wants to give it the best of the best. I admire that but there seems to be direct and real effects to using fully synth, not all of which are good. Personally id rethink your oil choice.

Ps; I would also like to add that in fifteen bikes owned i have never, ever, had clutch slippage on an unworn clutch due to the use of a motorcycle specific fully snth oil. This is an example of my genuine experiences and findings. But as John pointed out that is my finding and not a fact.

 

[smedly]

great post and I think you covered everything very well indeed, only thing I might have a leaning to disagree with is in my opinion - you will never do harm to any engine using the best oil money can buy, you may have undesired effects like clutch slippage or what ever but you will damage nothing. Again just my humble opinion.....happy motoring

PS just planning my next bike trip, prob to cambodia, just checking the layout and routes etc, I am rather spoilt with choices he he



interesting read - not saying it's right or wrong, just some extra thoughts to ponder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_oil

 

[honk]

Semi

Had a couple of beers too many last night could only manage a semi could not get a full one,so no problem with crouch slip.

 

[Rob Morris]

OH DEAR - The oil debate again...!

I use Fully in all my bikes and have never had a problem, however, being aware of the Semi "V" Fully debate I investigated which oil to use and performed a search of different oil website (BP, Silkolene etc) and they all recommended fully? Being awarethat this could simply be the oil company trying to seel you expensive oil, I actually read the Honda Blackbird handbook (free with every bike) andit states on Page 67:

Engine oil
Engine oil has many desirable qualities. Use only high detergent, quality motor oil certified on the container to meet or exceed requirements for API Service Classification SE, SF or SG.....!

This combined with my web searches indicated that you can use semi or fully which both exceed the above spec, however, fully is typically recommended by the oil companies and typically seen as the superior blend more able to cope with changing conditions.

I can remember hearing about a mystical offical letter from Honda with reference to Blackbird oil, however, as of yet nobody has re-produced it on this site to prove conclusive that semi is the better choice.

I would welcome site of this letter as like many others, I would like to use the cheaper semi oil and save a few pounds every oil change.

Please post the letter sot aht this debate can be settled once and for all?

 

[SpanishJohn]

Doing too many oil changes will damage an engine more than not enough

Didn't want to get involved in this, but Lumpy's comment got me. I assume you are referring to the increased chance of stripping the sump plug, otherwise I can't see how new oil every day would damage an engine.

Spanish

 

[the_sad_punk]

Also, never change it on a wednesday in the presence of a woman in the third day of her period as she is unclean, and this can strip the case hardening on your cams, as it written so shall it be, amen,... ahem,.....cough.

Spanish, you are clearly an individual who credits peoples opinions with deep thought, fair play indeed, you are clerarly a tru citizen of the world!
I too would be hard pressed to locate any mysterious reason as to why more frequent oil changes may result in engine damage and your reasoning is logical.

Lumpy is clearly an oil development chemist or someone who has actual direct experience of this issue with his Honda Blackbird.
If he is neither it may be fair to say he is typing what i like to call 'oil toss' (no offence at all meant to a long standing member). But as i pointed out in my prior post, if this is actual experience and finding then it is merely his finding, and not a fact in the manner which it were presented.

Lumpy, i quote for your attention, Andy Brown, technical head of Morris oils

"firstly there is no evidence whatsoever that frequent oil changes
damage engines in fact there is overwelming evidence to the contrary &
short milage changes definatley increase engine life,
The chemist that told You the detergent evaporates is evidently
talking rubbish & the total detergent level of a modern semi synthetic
is only about 5%of the total volume anyway ,
I agree that the use of fully synthetic in some engines seems to
disagree with them (havent a bloody clue why) I suspect that prehaps
the viscosity when cold might be a bit thin but thats total speculation"

 

[silverfox.xx]

Copied for your amusement, bearing in mind the date the Blackbird was designed ;


A research study [2] published by the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) and written by researchers belonging to the four Japanese motorcycle makers looked at then-new SH-rated car oils to evaluate their suitability for motorcycles. Among their conclusions:

1. The motorcycle manufacturers recommend SE, SF, SG-rated oils.
2. The manufacturers observe gear-pitting with viscosities less than 10W30.
3. Low-friction oils can cause wet multi-plate clutches to slip too much.
4. Low-friction oils can cause one-way limited slip (or back-torque limiting) clutches to slip too much.
5. Low-friction oils can cause starter motor clutches to slip too much.

They mention various standards which I take to be SH and SJ with the "Energy Conserving" and/or "Energy Conserving II" designations. The low-friction energy-conserving characteristic seems to be achieved by addition of organic molybdenum compounds. A column in one of Honda's technical service bulletins [3] gives an update on SH oils. I reproduce it here without permission.

"This type of oil was developed to optimize the kilometres per litre attained by automobile engines. To achieve this, most SH oils contain friction modifiers that significantly reduce frictional losses on internal combustion engine components. [...] While SH oil is fine in automobile engines, the situation is different for motorcycle engines.
"The use of SG rated oil with friction modifiers in Honda motorcycle engines may cause the following problems:

• Wear between the camshaft lobes and rockers arms due to the lubricant breaking down between the two components.
• Slipping and deterioration of wet multi-plate clutch systems.
• Slipping of one-way starter clutch systems.
• Possible wear and pitting of transmission gear teeth due to the decreased shear-stability of the oil

"Not all SH rated oils use friction modifiers. But since oil producers are not required to state if their oil contains friction modifiers, it is difficult to tell which brand may cause a problem. With this in mind, we recommend that SH rated oils not be used in Honda motorcycles."
​

This article appeared in 1998 and would apply to oil classifications that follow SH including the current SL rating.

Me , I'll stick to mineral oil..

 

[karlos2000]

jesus christ

it's oil, it is not DIY open heart surgery

 

[the_sad_punk]

Me , I'll stick to mineral oil..

And me, im using semi. Whos engine will last longer? Id imagine that will come down to usage, oil change frequency and how the engine is treated when cold and not a semi v dino juice debate.
With this in mind perhaps we should change this discussion to something more relevant to engine health like the above and stop pretending that we know what we are talking about regaring oil chemistery with enough certainty to give weighty opinion or 'facts'.

 

[smedly]

I think the issue here is that you cannot just go and buy any engine oil and put it in your bike, I buy oil that is designed for motorbike engines whether that is mineral SS or FS and from my experience I have had no problems whatsoever, a full oil change for my bike a few weeks ago cost me ?25 and it was 10W40 FS, my next change I am going to try a 15W or 20W50 as it is extremely hot here all of the time. I used several makes of oil in my car - which one was better I really don't know, I don't use the same oil in my bike as it was not designed for bikes.

 

[Wolfie]

I bet it's hotter inside the engine.

not if it is a fast air cooled bike it aint

 

[Wolfie]

oo fuck i have got a semi on again now.

 

[Wolfie]

that's as good as it ever got droopy!!:k

company i keep.

 

[Wolfie]

your right hand?

fit in well here dont i

 

[Duck n Dive]

That's a mighty fast looking chair sitting in that shed ...


I'm just trying to remember where I've seen one like that before :dunno:

 

[Jaws]

And I do believe a PROPER workmate.. not one of the new super flimsy crappy things !

 

[andyBeaker]

And I do believe a PROPER workmate.. not one of the new super flimsy crappy things !

i have one of the original ones with cast aluminium undercarriage.

Very battle scarred, but will outlast me:-0)

I also have a Sinclair C5 still in the box. Not relevant, but might interesting. Not.

 

[Wolfie]

workmate is a b&q special £10 it was. the chair???? had it years. hang on which chair?? the blue or the two white ones??