Helmet off or no fuel!!!

[Duck n Dive]

When faced with that I just said .. I've got the fuel and here's the money .. do you want paying or not... kept my lid on.

They decided they'd like the money...

having offerred to pay then it's not theft if they refuse it.

Same way as getting to the till and saying ... "shit .. forgotton my wallet .. here's my name/address and vehicle details"


I believe for it to be theft there has to be the intent not to pay ...

 

[ScottyUK]

Fuel's as wierd one. The law says you have to have the ability to pay before you start filling.

 

[Duck n Dive]

Fuel's as wierd one. The law says you have to have the ability to pay before you start filling.

Which law's that ?


Anyway ... ability to pay still doesn't mean the payment's in your pocket...:-0)

 

[ScottyUK]

Theft. It gets classified as a drive off even if you don't .... apparenty.
This is why many stations (I know both the Shell ones I use do) call the Police immediately.

 

[big harv]

So you remove your helmet & place it on the seat, it falls off & gets damaged, who is going to replace it?

You remove your helmet & put it on the floor, you pick it up & it's covered in Diesel, do you put it back on your head?

These filling stations are alright insisting you remove your helmet but they don't provide any safe storage for them.

Just a thought though, you remove your helmet, then you fill your tank with petrol, then you go to pay with your helmet in your hand then decide "sod it" & whack the cashier with your helmet & take all the cash from the till, wouldn't have happened if you were wearing it so their own rules create a weapon.

love it DK. know someone who did that to someone who T-boned him at a junction, the guy had no recollection of the assault as was in shock but as the helmet was in his hand he said I guess I must have! and got off!!! Quality!

 

[Duck n Dive]

Theft. It gets classified as a drive off even if you don't .... apparenty.
This is why many stations (I know both the Shell ones I use do) call the Police immediately.

Sorry ... but methinks you're wrong ........


and guess why I say that :-0)



there is only one law of theft .. there isn't a "special" one that applies to petrol.

In theft act the actual legal definition is:


"A person shall be guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it."


So walking up to the till and explaining you thought your wallet was in your pocket but it isn't, giving your name and address and saying you'll be back shortly to pay .......

Isn't theft ...... and unless you don't return and pay the police will not be interested.


I can tell you that when it happened to me the nice Morrisons petrol folks said "if you don't return and pay within 24hrs we'll report it to the police"



If you look at some theft cases you'll see that all the requirements have to be present for it to be theft:


1. The item(s) must be property of annother.

That's why if the police can't actually identify the owner of what they might be pretty certain is stolen property in a scrotes possesion they can't actually make a charge of theft stick.



2. It/they must be aquired dishonestly.

That's why if you've bought something honestly (and not at an obviously dogdy price/way etc) and have a receipt etc. if it subsequently turns out to be stolen you can still end up retaining the property.



3. There must be intent to permanently deprive the owner of their property.

If you pick up someone's wallet in the street you can't really be prosecuted for theft until you actually (for example) spend some of the money in it, remove some items and throw the rest etc., or it's been six months since you found it and you've still not managed to find your way to the police station around the corner to hand it in!! :-0) i.e. some action/inaction on your part proves your intent to permanently deprive.



So basically when buying fuel if you clearly identify yourself, offer an explanation and intent to pay then it cannot be theft.


I suspect that should you take too long to pay and plod come calling then going straight to the petrol station with them and paying then would be likely to avoid prosecution .... it avoids paperwork for the cops (unless they'd like an easy crime solve) and once paid clearly no permanent deprivation exists.

:-0)

 

[ScottyUK]

You could be right. I've never been in the position.

However when in Shell at Old Street, someone did it, they pointed to the sign and called the Police. :dunno:

 

[Tinytim]

You could be right. I've never been in the position.

However when in Shell at Old Street, someone did it, they pointed to the sign and called the Police. :dunno:

:bang::bang:

"they" can call who they fookin well like can't "they"...read "D&D's" definitions. They are quite simple and logical.

Bollox . This thread is now pissing me off...

 

[Duck n Dive]

Don't you just love it when the timing is pefect :-0)

As for what happens when you've now't to pay with ...


see Pugwash and his "senior" moment in the thread about helping him find the BP garage:

http://www.bikersoracle.com/blackbird/forum/showthread.php?t=49946


As you can see .. no theft ... just make sure you call us with your card details


a drum roll if you please :-0)

 

[Lux_Interior]

Sorry ... but methinks you're wrong ........


and guess why I say that :-0)



there is only one law of theft .. there isn't a "special" one that applies to petrol.

In theft act the actual legal definition is:


"A person shall be guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it."


So walking up to the till and explaining you thought your wallet was in your pocket but it isn't, giving your name and address and saying you'll be back shortly to pay .......

Isn't theft ...... and unless you don't return and pay the police will not be interested.


I can tell you that when it happened to me the nice Morrisons petrol folks said "if you don't return and pay within 24hrs we'll report it to the police"



If you look at some theft cases you'll see that all the requirements have to be present for it to be theft:


1. The item(s) must be property of annother.

That's why if the police can't actually identify the owner of what they might be pretty certain is stolen property in a scrotes possesion they can't actually make a charge of theft stick.



2. It/they must be aquired dishonestly.

That's why if you've bought something honestly (and not at an obviously dogdy price/way etc) and have a receipt etc. if it subsequently turns out to be stolen you can still end up retaining the property.



3. There must be intent to permanently deprive the owner of their property.

If you pick up someone's wallet in the street you can't really be prosecuted for theft until you actually (for example) spend some of the money in it, remove some items and throw the rest etc., or it's been six months since you found it and you've still not managed to find your way to the police station around the corner to hand it in!! :-0) i.e. some action/inaction on your part proves your intent to permanently deprive.



So basically when buying fuel if you clearly identify yourself, offer an explanation and intent to pay then it cannot be theft.


I suspect that should you take too long to pay and plod come calling then going straight to the petrol station with them and paying then would be likely to avoid prosecution .... it avoids paperwork for the cops (unless they'd like an easy crime solve) and once paid clearly no permanent deprivation exists.

:-0)

Not quite so simple:

S.3 Theft Act 1978 provides:

?A person who, knowing that payment on the spot for any goods supplied or service done is required or expected from him, dishonestly makes off without having paid as required or expected and with intent to avoid payment of the amount shall be guilty of an offence.



This was brought in to cover situations wheren the intent is formed after the petrol (or meal or whatever) had been obtained.


There is still the key element of "with intent to avoid payment" so leaving your name and other details would probably show that there was no such intent.

 

[Allan]

Not quite so simple:

S.3 Theft Act 1978 provides:

?A person who, knowing that payment on the spot for any goods supplied or service done is required or expected from him, dishonestly makes off without having paid as required or expected and with intent to avoid payment of the amount shall be guilty of an offence.



This was brought in to cover situations wheren the intent is formed after the petrol (or meal or whatever) had been obtained.


There is still the key element of "with intent to avoid payment" so leaving your name and other details would probably show that there was no such intent.

This is known as 'bilking'.

 

[MARTYN-CBR600]

Jono I went this one yesterday on the bird and same happened to me joke was I wanted to pay @pump had to go in to find out why the pump was not starting was then asked to take helmet off so just told her to forget it and went the one @ end of barnton mile straight.
It's a bloody joke must be new/new person as never been asked to remove it before

 

[Pugwash]

There is still the key element of "with intent to avoid payment" so leaving your name and other details would probably show that there was no such intent.

The BP garage yesterday said it would be passed onto the police after 24 hours automatically even though I had been in, given them all my details and offered to pay by phone later.

A few years back my friend had an amusing phone call from his dad about the police looking for him. He was still insured under his dad's policy having only moved out recently. He'd filled up petrol, grabbed a sarnie and a drink and paid at the till. Except he'd forgotten to mention petrol and the person on the till didn't add it. An hour later the police were after a drive-away and hot on his heels!

 

[karlos2000]

food ........ fuel

I knew that would get your attention .......

Food :
a few years ago when I lived nearer to Lincoln I went to a [then] new trendy Waterfront pub on the so called up market Burton Waters development . Was a Saturday lunch, for 4 people, food finally ordered; service was diabolical, the food was equally as diabolical. BLT's ordered on brown, came white, salads were not anywhere near, drinks wrong, all sent back, came back repeatedly ..... all utterly chaotic.
After all was dispensed with I then asked my wife & two guests to leave so they couldn't witness what followed. I went over to pay and "offered" them 50% of the bill. The cut short version was that the supervisor kept popping into the kitchen to see the manager, as they wouldn't come out to see me, so this to-ing and fro-ing took place with messages going between me and the no-show manager. They wanted me to pay, I was refusing, but sticking with what I felt was a fair deal, ie: 50%. as lunch was ruined and the quality was way below par.
The final straw was the threat of 'calling the police as this is theft'. The clincher? was when I said, "just pass me your phone over, I'll call them myself ........ ".
Reply? "my manager says no charge but don't ever come back here again"

I never have, no loss, it's still a shit hole I'm told.

Fuel:
Went to a nearest garage in April, first day out for my summer car, filled up, looked in my pockets, no wallet went inside, explained that I must have left the wallet at home .... they took my details & reg number etc, I signed a sheet that said I would be 'back soon', and off I went. The slightly embarrassing feature is that my wallet was hidden down the side of the passenger seat, so I was back in less than a minute, but the point was that as far as they were concerned it was a simple error and no big deal. I seem to remember them saying "pop in when passing".

 

[TANK0700]

well well well , some names on here blast from the past , just wanted to restore this as had a run in last night at a garage, Holton Brook Runcorn, no sign on the door asking you to take the Helmet off so stood in the Queue, wallet in one hand card in other hand and the obnoxious pakistani man shouting at me to "get my helmet off" i said No he shouted its the law i laughed and said no its not, it went down hill from there, he did take my card while telling me not to use the garage again and kept saying get your helmet off, i did ask politely if he would ask a lady to removed her head scarf , that didn't go down well either. anyway he took my reg number so i wait for the knock on the door from someone to tell me i have done something wrong

 

[Jaws]

Nice resurrection of thread.. good to be reminded of members past @tu*

Re knock on the door..
I suspect that is not likely to happen LOL !!

Now me, being an awkward cuss, would be composing a letter to the garage owner telling of the threats and intimidation you suffered and am handing the details to the police and taking legal advise about possible compensation for the trauma and embarrassment suffered !!!

 

[Pow-Lo]

Now me, being an awkward cuss, would be composing a letter to the garage owner telling of the threats and intimidation you suffered and am handing the details to the police and taking legal advise about possible compensation for the trauma and embarrassment suffered !!!

Now me, being the cantankerous twat that I am, would have dragged him over the counter and panned his fuckin' head in.

 

[Howard]

Fuck it, Move on, don't go back if you feel that strong about it, there are more important things in life.............the world is fucked and full of fuckwits (not you Tank, heaven forbid! :-0))

 

[ianrobbo1]

IF!!! they finally decide to grow some, and the powers that be decide to ban the Burka, I think it's likely that we should only then start taking our lids off!! cant see either happening to be honest!! 8rfl@ -(-(

 

[andyBeaker]

Get a bloody grip the lot of you!

Is it really so much of a deal?

And it is just plain rude engaging with anyone while wearing a helmet.

If you are all so precious find a garage that has pay at the pump by card. There are plenty around.

Or get a car. They are better than bikes anyway.