That's new Paddy. You have always said the bike battery was good and spun the engine over quickly.:dunno:
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That's new Paddy. You have always said the bike battery was good and spun the engine over quickly.:dunno:
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Paddy.
Guest
I know... its strange.
Have done loom fix.
I'm now totally lost.
I stripped it all down today, ended up deciding its best to give it to someone who either wants a project or see if I can get a pro to look at it.
Built it backup and gave it a bump to make sure it was working and charging. Went for a 5 minute or so ride, giving it proper beans, flying up to 100mph or so in places and enjoying the 1 wheel adventures...
Got it home, turned it off and tried to start it, it fired up..
Tried again, it fired up, although you did hear something slip or donk, sounded like the clutch when I tried to pop her on the back wheel, like it limited the torque or something
Left it for a minute or two, little bit of throttle and it started again... again you hear the sound of like a clutch slipping then donking...
Tried 5 minutes later and it just spins and spins, no fire.
So... what the hell :bang:
Have done loom fix.
I'm now totally lost.
I stripped it all down today, ended up deciding its best to give it to someone who either wants a project or see if I can get a pro to look at it.
Built it backup and gave it a bump to make sure it was working and charging. Went for a 5 minute or so ride, giving it proper beans, flying up to 100mph or so in places and enjoying the 1 wheel adventures...
Got it home, turned it off and tried to start it, it fired up..
Tried again, it fired up, although you did hear something slip or donk, sounded like the clutch when I tried to pop her on the back wheel, like it limited the torque or something
Left it for a minute or two, little bit of throttle and it started again... again you hear the sound of like a clutch slipping then donking...
Tried 5 minutes later and it just spins and spins, no fire.
So... what the hell :bang:
Back to the beginning, Paddy.
The NUMBER 1 reason for your symptoms is a dodgy battery. You assured us right from the beginning your battery was perfect. It doesn't sound like it now. When you first got back it started on the starter and then it wouldn't as the battery output dropped.If you flog it on you will loose an arm and a leg so go buy a new battery, charge it up overnight and try again. You have only about £40 to loose.
The NUMBER 1 reason for your symptoms is a dodgy battery. You assured us right from the beginning your battery was perfect. It doesn't sound like it now. When you first got back it started on the starter and then it wouldn't as the battery output dropped.If you flog it on you will loose an arm and a leg so go buy a new battery, charge it up overnight and try again. You have only about £40 to loose.
Buy a battery!!!:-0)
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Pete.
Guest
Lo guys, long time.
Right well I have Paddy's bike round here an run some tests on it:
Brand new fully charged battery fitted, only 2 weeks old.
Ignition on, pump primes, coils and injectors have 12v
Crank engine, spins very well, get 11v to the pump, coils, injectors and the battery measures 11v too (starter is pulling the voltage down a bit). Bike doesn't fire.
So I'm thinking maybe the ECM doesn't know the engine is cranking. Remove starter lead from solenoid, push button, solenoid clicks but no power to pump. This proves that the ECM does recognise that the engine is cranking, because it powers the pump when the starter spins but not if you remove the lead and push the button.
As it went down on the right, I took the cover off to check out the signal generator and it looks a-ok.
Next job is going to be to cut off the large earth plug and solder all the wires together. It's tested out on the meter but I'm taking no chances - it's getting the chop.
Any input will be gratefully received, I'll post updates as I work through the system.
Right well I have Paddy's bike round here an run some tests on it:
Brand new fully charged battery fitted, only 2 weeks old.
Ignition on, pump primes, coils and injectors have 12v
Crank engine, spins very well, get 11v to the pump, coils, injectors and the battery measures 11v too (starter is pulling the voltage down a bit). Bike doesn't fire.
So I'm thinking maybe the ECM doesn't know the engine is cranking. Remove starter lead from solenoid, push button, solenoid clicks but no power to pump. This proves that the ECM does recognise that the engine is cranking, because it powers the pump when the starter spins but not if you remove the lead and push the button.
As it went down on the right, I took the cover off to check out the signal generator and it looks a-ok.
Next job is going to be to cut off the large earth plug and solder all the wires together. It's tested out on the meter but I'm taking no chances - it's getting the chop.
Any input will be gratefully received, I'll post updates as I work through the system.
P
Pete.
Guest
Ok, crank the engine with the signal generator cover off, pump doesn't run. This proves the ECM is getting a pulse from the signal generator because it runs the pump with it fitted.
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Pete.
Guest
Chopped all the green wires off the junction and most are black. Loads of scraping, fluxing and tinning going on ATM.
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Pete.
Guest
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Pete.
Guest
Anyone know how the camshaft sensor signal is utilised? Does the ECM take a signal at startup only or constantly when running? I'm sur eI read somewhere that some bikes only use the cam position sensor for start cycle. Kinda clutching at straws here but the ECM clearly knows the engine is cranking from the crank sensor, but is refusing to give a spark or inject any fuel that we can see when cranked on the starter. I've checked all the contiuity from ECM to both cam and crank sensor connectors but have no way to test the actual sensors themselves.
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Pete.
Guest
Yes I have the Honda service manual in pdf format thanks Centaur.
Now I have noticed something when cranking. The immobiliser light flashes when cranked on the starter. When cranking stops I hear a click of the relay same as after fuel pump prime, and the immobiliser light goes out. I tried cranking the starter off a separate battery and it cranks, the immobiliser light does not flash, but there is still no spark.
Now I have noticed something when cranking. The immobiliser light flashes when cranked on the starter. When cranking stops I hear a click of the relay same as after fuel pump prime, and the immobiliser light goes out. I tried cranking the starter off a separate battery and it cranks, the immobiliser light does not flash, but there is still no spark.
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Pete.
Guest
ANyone know where exactly the immobilser is kept on this bike?
IIRC the key sensor is around the ignition barrel - but the imobiliser itself is part of the ecu
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Pete.
Guest
Aah ok, thanks Deano.
Right we have got it started. After anylising all the symptoms over dinner we figured that the only difference between bump starting and starter cranking is the fact that when you bump-start the engine it's spinning much faster (bump start in 2nd will spin the engine to about 800-1000rpm whereas the starter spins it about 300). So I took another battery and put it in series with the first AFTER the solenoid so that the starter saw 24V (or about 22.5 to be more correct). The engine span over very fast and fired right up.
Now don't get me wrong - the normal battery spins the engine over VERY strongly, it's a new 14ah unit after all - but it just doesn't fire up when cranking. The problem isn't from a weak crank, it's somewhere else. Using 24v makes it whizz over at double-speed then it starts.
Right we have got it started. After anylising all the symptoms over dinner we figured that the only difference between bump starting and starter cranking is the fact that when you bump-start the engine it's spinning much faster (bump start in 2nd will spin the engine to about 800-1000rpm whereas the starter spins it about 300). So I took another battery and put it in series with the first AFTER the solenoid so that the starter saw 24V (or about 22.5 to be more correct). The engine span over very fast and fired right up.
Now don't get me wrong - the normal battery spins the engine over VERY strongly, it's a new 14ah unit after all - but it just doesn't fire up when cranking. The problem isn't from a weak crank, it's somewhere else. Using 24v makes it whizz over at double-speed then it starts.
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Pete.
Guest
It sure does. Paddy's going to upload a crappy video later of it cranking on 12v and starting on 24v.
We've exhausted all avenues in the time we had today, been on it eight or ten hours with a stop for dinner. He's just left here on the bike, starting instantly on the button, because we've installed a second battery in the tail wired after the slenoid to give an additional 12V just for the starter cranking. The problem is not cured, but the bike starts and runs and the second battery doesn't affect anything else on the bike. This is a regular modification on big-bore high compression Hayabusa engines as they won't crank on 12V and smash the engine casings when they kick back.
The only other thing I have to add of any value is the only fault code we encountered - it was one single slow continuous flash of the fault light.
Other than that, we are no further forward with finding the actual fault itself apart from having eliminated several things.