Police Officer Pushes Man Over Who Then Dies

[derek kelly]

RH, So you want the other Officers to stand trial as well for not shopping him? Let's just suppose that you were a police Officer dealing with a similar situation, now picture the Officer pushing the guy & imagine that he's your best friend, what would you do?

 

[rovinghawk]

RH, So you want the other Officers to stand trial as well for not shopping him?

I didn't say that, although the idea isn't without merit. I was thinking more towards disciplinary measures for accessory after the fact to assault ending in manslaughter.

Let's just suppose that you were a police Officer dealing with a similar situation, now picture the Officer pushing the guy & imagine that he's your best friend, what would you do?

There wasn't so much as a "Steady on, Fred" from any of them- they've condoned something from him that they sure as hell wouldn't condone from me.
Loyalty to friends is fine, but not when they're blatantly in the wrong. There's something about "without fear or favour" in the rules, IIRC.

"Loyalty before everything. Except honour." Would you disagree with that idea?

RH

 

[firebladetrev]

RH, So you want the other Officers to stand trial as well for not shopping him? Let's just suppose that you were a police Officer dealing with a similar situation, now picture the Officer pushing the guy & imagine that he's your best friend, what would you do?

Tell the truth. Friend or no friend i was always told to tell the truth.

 

[firebladetrev]

It was the Falklands when I was there. :-0) Typical Jack.

Typo terribly sorry Jono but none of us is perfect. especially us ex stokers.

 

[Jono]

Typo terribly sorry Jono but none of us is perfect. especially us ex stokers.

I suppose it felt like Flakland when it was all going on. I was never happier to get ashore than down there. :bow:

 

[derek kelly]

Tell the truth. Friend or no friend i was always told to tell the truth.

Easy to say, much harder to do, You see your colleague push someone & you think A] the scrote deserved it. B] Your mate went a bit over the top. The guy he pushed dies you think A] Should my colleague lose his career & family for one mistake I think it'll be easier if I didn't see anything. B] He was totally out of order he acted like a thug & I'm going to see that he's punished for it. You speak out & you can virtually kiss your career goodbye as non of your colleagues will trust you anymore & will request not to work with you, you will be offered a posting but your reputation will follow & you will be ostracised at your new place, alongside this you will face possibly years of enquiry people in suits trying to dig the dirt on you to discredit your evidence, then you start to think "I wish I'd kept my mouth shut" I know of a senior Prison Officr who gave evidence against a colleague following a riot & the Inquiry got too much for him he smuggled a gun into the Prison & went into the reception area & killed himself with a bullet to the head. So if you think you can be so sure of what you witnessed & that you can give such a detailed & accurate description of events Months or years after the event, & that you can withstand the rigorous cross examinations & more to the point that your marriage can withstand the enormous pressure that comes with it, then you are a bigger & braver man than me

 

[rovinghawk]

Easy to say, much harder to do........ You see your colleague push someone ...........it'll be easier if I didn't see anything............ you can virtually kiss your career goodbye ...........you start to think "I wish I'd kept my mouth shut"

So it's not about right and wrong, it's about easy and difficult.

Nobody wants to be the first one to do the right thing because they think/know everyone else will be disgusted by someone who does the right thing.
Guess how impressive this sounds. It's like a deceitful schoolkid saying the bigger boys made him bully someone.

"I was only doing my job. I was only obeying orders. I did it because everyone else did it." This defence was considered unacceptable for concentration camp guards at the Nurnberg trials- why the hell do you consider it acceptable now?

RH

 

[derek kelly]

Yes it is about right and wrong, it's good to have principles but when those principles cost you your job, your home, your family, your sanity, & sometimes ultimately your life is it right to say what you believe you saw? believe it or not there are not many people who can recall every detail of every incident they often miss minor details & these minor details will form the bigger picture. Any Police officer that does come forward :bow:

 

[rovinghawk]

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing"

(This presupposes the existence of the good men.)

RH

 

[Duck n Dive]

Yes it is about right and wrong, it's good to have principles but when those principles cost you your job, your home, your family, your sanity, & sometimes ultimately your life is it right to say what you believe you saw?

Hmmm .. perhaps if a persons principles fail when those things are at risk then what you're talking about are actually a set of "convenience sound bites" and not true principles

:dunno:

 

[hellraiser]

All these bad police are not something new remember the west midlands crime squad.They made this lot look like boy scouts.

 

[Wurley]

Ian Tomlinson a homeless alcoholic being ordered to get out of the way of a police van 85 minutes before being pushed over . . .

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ters-march-silence-man-died-G20-protests.html

. . . hardly the well loved family man who got innocently caught up in the G20 protest on his way home from work as has been previously reported. If his family loved him so much why was he homeless, all his family are seeing now are ????????????

Still if it causes another shit storm for the police I guess some will be more than happy . . . we will get an even more hand wringing, apologetic, pc grovelling, service than we have already 3ck04

Just don't start throwing all your toys out of your prams when the criminals really do start running riot :bang:

 

[shropslad]

hmmmmmm

Just don't start throwing all your toys out of your prams when the criminals really do start running riot

and they arn't already, but thats a different argument, don't matter if he was homeless, he still should not have been attacked from behind, because thats what it was IMHO.

 

[Duck n Dive]

. . . hardly the well loved family man who got innocently caught up in the G20 protest on his way home from work as has been previously reported.

Not sure what news sources you saw but all the ones I saw at the time reported him as a homeless alcoholic living in a hostel.

Also what I saw said he didn't work as a news vendor but simply spent his days there with the news vendor chappy helping out ... I took that as simply something he did to pass the time.

I also seem to recall something about him having spent around 40 mins trying to get to the hostel before his run in.


Personally I feel the full invesitgation needs to run it's course.



As far as the police tactics themselves go I'm very wary of this "kettling".

I can see where as an "operational control tactic" it can seem very effective.

But ... what happens to someone living/working etc or who genuinely happens to be passing through such an area.

Just how calm might I be after effectively being "detained" against my will.

Now you might say well I should know about something like this about to kick off and stay clear .... problem is I'm a bit thick with stuff like this and tend to just switch off and ignore all the run up publicity to such events.

I could very easily see myself walking into such a situation without realising it :bang:


Now if I'm an alcho (no-one's yet said he was actually drunk I believe?) maybe not firing on all cylinders and desperate to get back to the safe haven of my hostel - perhaps thinking I'd lose my place and be on the streets if I didn't ... maybe I wouldn't be calm and "normal".

:dunno:


It's a tricky one either way.

The one biggy concern I have at this stage is the concealing of PC's ID. Sorry but if the lawkeepers don't think they'll be safe from the bad guys then we've already lost the plot.

So either it's a genuine fear - which means society has already lost the plot.

Or ...

It's the same as the "professional" protestor maybe getting a "slap" saying "I wasn't doing now't guv"


i.e. a convenient excuse to be used when ignoring the law/rules and perhaps indicative of the "intention" to be in a position where privacy of identity might be desirable??


This could run and run and run and run ..........

:-0)

 

[brian willetts]

Let's just suppose that you were a police Officer dealing with a similar situation, now picture the Officer pushing the guy & imagine that he's your best friend, what would you do?[/quote]

But isnt there job to uphold the law????

 

[derek kelly]

Let's just suppose that you were a police Officer dealing with a similar situation, now picture the Officer pushing the guy & imagine that he's your best friend, what would you do?

But isnt there job to uphold the law????[/QUOTE]

Of course it is & I am not condoning the Officers actions I am trying to Offer a reasoned argument as to why other Officers would not come forward & speak against their colleague, if the guy was slow timing & being deliberately obstructive the officers may percieve that their colleague was upholding the law by moving him on with a shove in the back, all civilians see is the police brutality, without being there & knowing the circumstances we cannot judge. It is so easy for us sat in our cosy homes saying "If it was me I'd do the right thing & shop him" but in reality it is a shitty situation to be in & the majority of people would keep quiet.

 

[rovinghawk]

I am trying to Offer a reasoned argument as to why

their colleague was upholding the law by moving him on with a shove in the back

Could you please offer a reasoned argument why ITN showed film of what appeared to be a baton strike with a good run-up?

RH

 

[Wurley]

Could you please offer a reasoned argument why ITN showed film of what appeared to be a baton strike with a good run-up?

RH

I don't call a couple of steps a good run up . . .

As for the rest of the videos highlights on the Guardian website . . .

Police dog bites protestor & baton charge against press photograpers my advice would be . . .

Don't go up to a load of dog handlers & their dogs with a crowd of hostile protestors behind you & expect the dogs to wag their tails & let you rub their bellies :bow:

For the photographers don't get sandwiched between the lines of the police & the protestors, then brick it when the police surge forward to mantain control the situation with force c7u8

To the Guardian how much did you get from Kenco to sponsor all of the clips of the G20 riot :bang:

 

[jpm-m44]

G20

Just been reading this thread....
Bobbies are trained to use 'baton' strikes to legs/arms ( green area ) as for the push, again two handed pushes are another 'Home Office' trained technique. Would be interesting to see what this chap was up to prior to the incident, as judging by the pictures in the various papers he's had run-ins all day with the police...If the bobbies in the wrong then so be it.
Also the 'balaclavas' are flash hoods in case somebody rather than throwing a bottle full of urine decides to put petrol in and light it...

 

[derek kelly]

The thing that is clear from this thread is that people are prepared to condemn a man before knowing the facts, that is why we have juries sitting through long tedious trials, so that they at least can be in receipt of the facts & have the benefit of consulting with fellow jurors before making a decision.