Knock sensor again...

[SpanishJohn]

changed the baro sensor (map sensor). no difference.

 

[silverfox.xx]

Ecm or wire from ks is my guess.. sorry to hear its playing up again.. you need to try a borrowed ecm.. check earths, check ecm connectors.. least you know its not ks itself. My money s on ecm still. Seems to becomming a common fault, even had a guy in singapore saying it's a common fault on early injection birds...

 

[Oldbull]

Deep breaths John, youll sort it mate @tu*

 

[SpanishJohn]

Ecm or wire from ks is my guess.. sorry to hear its playing up again.. you need to try a borrowed ecm.. check earths, check ecm connectors.. least you know its not ks itself. My money s on ecm still. Seems to becomming a common fault, even had a guy in singapore saying it's a common fault on early injection birds...

H Clive,

Wire from KS is now a screened cable. All earths checked and double checked many times over.

Spanish

 

[SpanishJohn]

The fact that removing the KS connector made no difference at all to power etc suggests ECU, but how would the ECU fail???? Maybe I have bough one of the few lemon blackbirds:violin:. I know that I can't go on spending money on this bike. If I knew for a fact it was the ECU, then I would not hesitate in sorting it, but to spend another 200-400 quid and not sort the problem....

 

[Jaws]

There are lots of folk in your area whith efi birds.. surely someone will step up and offer to lend you one for ten minutes to try it ?
Only need to swap the CDI's , and tape the donor bikes key to your own to try it out

 

[silverfox.xx]

If I lived nearer I'd try my ECM on your bike.. 2 in Singapore now. You're not alone mate. If F1 lights at 3000 rpm, start bike and take it straight to above 6000 rpm. If you don't get F1 on within a minute, drop revs to 3000/6000 rpm, if it then comes on I feel sure its ECM.

Just saw what John/Jaws wrote.. (wrap your key with tin foil to screen it)

 

[smedly]

changed the baro sensor (map sensor). no difference.

where on any previous post have you mentioned this even when it's been suggested to you before

look I'm sorry mate but to come on here with a problem then insist on one path regardless of what people suggest then three pages of posts later declare you've already done this and that, I'm beggining to think this is a wind up, I suggested quite a while ago to give us more detailed info on what you had covered and changed already - you did that but obviously not completely, short of going back and reading this whole thread again to get a complete picture of what you have already changed/done which quite frankly is wasting my time and everyone elses and may not be complete perhaps as requested already by me you could take the time and share with us all everthing you have tried

and personally I doubt the KS wire is the culprit as it passes the ECU test

 

[smedly]

If I lived nearer I'd try my ECM on your bike.. 2 in Singapore now. You're not alone mate. If F1 lights at 3000 rpm, start bike and take it straight to above 6000 rpm. If you don't get F1 on within a minute, drop revs to 3000/6000 rpm, if it then comes on I feel sure its ECM.

Just saw what John/Jaws wrote.. (wrap your key with tin foil to screen it)

his ECM is not picking up any errors unless I missed something mate, it did when he disconnected the KS which is normal, the ecm ran in safe mode which is simply saying the fault is not present using a fixed map which additionally means that this fault is related to a sensor who's output is ignored in safe mode, like I have already said the KS is the only sensor that is actually signal tested the rest the ecm checks if they are there an relies on them giving a good calibrated signal which doesn't mean they are - it assume they are, stuff like the AIT (air intake temp) sensor could be way off but the ecm has no way of knowing this, the ecm has no way of working out external conditions other than what the sensors tell it, that includes air temp - altitude - fuel grade - air volume - fuel pressure - fuel flow - exact throttle position - engine temp - etc etc etc

the reason I mentioned the baro sensor is simply that it could have been giving inaccurate info about atmospheric pressure which does change with weather, air intake temp could possibly be another option, maybe at 25c it reads 50c therefore at 10c it reads 35c and the ecm acts incorrectly based on what the sensor is telling it. Honda put an IAT sensor there for a reason so it must influence the fuel map in some way, not sure what it would be doing at supposed 50c but I'm sure something

 

[SpanishJohn]

where on any previous post have you mentioned this even when it's been suggested to you before

look I'm sorry mate but to come on here with a problem then insist on one path regardless of what people suggest then three pages of posts later declare you've already done this and that, I'm beggining to think this is a wind up, I suggested quite a while ago to give us more detailed info on what you had covered and changed already - you did that but obviously not completely, short of going back and reading this whole thread again to get a complete picture of what you have already changed/done which quite frankly is wasting my time and everyone elses and may not be complete perhaps as requested already by me you could take the time and share with us all everthing you have tried

and personally I doubt the KS wire is the culprit as it passes the ECU test

FFS smedley have you got a problem or something, I'm not posting this stuff for fun you know. I happened to buy a secondhand map sensor recently based on your comments (which I have said on a previous post) and attached it to the bike recently (the baro sensor is a map sensor). As for wanting more info - are you having a laugh... I'm sorry if my way of reporting a fault does not conform to your format, but don't come on here accusing me of making up false information, I have better things to do with my time.

Spanish

 

[SpanishJohn]

the reason I mentioned the baro sensor is simply that it could have been giving inaccurate info about atmospheric pressure which does change with weather, air intake temp could possibly be another option, maybe at 25c it reads 50c therefore at 10c it reads 35c and the ecm acts incorrectly based on what the sensor is telling it. Honda put an IAT sensor there for a reason so it must influence the fuel map in some way, not sure what it would be doing at supposed 50c but I'm sure something

This is a possibility I suppose. If the ECU thought it was 30C rather than 10C it would be fooled into running a very leam mixture right? The reason I havn't gone down that path is because, of all the sensors, the IAT is one of the least stressed and most simple (as opposed to the KS which is one of the most stressed), and if it was running lean, why do i have soot in my exhaust.

Spanish

 

[smedly]

I've been in a fault tracing environment all my life, I just have a very logical way of approaching things and have given your problem a lot of thought right from the start, I don't have a problem with anyone here as I have never met up I can only go by what is written. I am very social if you met me as I'm sure you are, my bike drove me to distraction when it was not running correctly something I would have sorted very quickly had I had access to what I needed but I had to wait for someone else to take the steps to solve it (many thx to silverfox) and for me that took 2 years, anyway I hope you get it sorted

PS I'm sure you mentioned soot in your exhaust somewhere

 

[SpanishJohn]

I've been in a fault tracing environment all my life, I just have a very logical way of approaching things and have given your problem a lot of thought right from the start, I don't have a problem with anyone here as I have never met up I can only go by what is written. I am very social if you met me as I'm sure you are, my bike drove me to distraction when it was not running correctly something I would have sorted very quickly had I had access to what I needed but I had to wait for someone else to take the steps to solve it (many thx to silverfox) and for me that took 2 years, anyway I hope you get it sorted

Are you saying that you had to replace your ECM to solve your problem? What bike do you have?

 

[smedly]

I had an intermittant fault 25 for the last 2 years, if I'd had access to a KS and an ECU the first day I'd have fixed it that quick

simple process
1. check wiring
2. replace KS
3. replace ecu

I didn't have access to these items and refused to throw money down the drain until I was sure what was required, I suspect the KS fault 25 is a simple design flaw in the ecu with a bad joint or similar, I'd have opened the ecu to check for that also if it wasn't sealed up with a lot of resin and sh*t

your problem to me is simply a sensor that is working but is out of tolerence, there may be some logic to the fault condition if you line all the stuff up which is why I get frustrated when you keep adding things lol, run ok when cold outside or takes it beyond stability when it's hot outside, yes the ecm could be at fault here but you need some kind person to supply you with all the bits and eliminate them one by one, what complicates that is you need certain weather conditions to do that. Is it not cold all the time now in the UK ?

 

[dave boyce]

I know this might sound fucking stupid feel free to chuck abuse at me but have you checked your spark plugs,plug caps,HT leads,coils? weak spark maybe that would explain the sooty exhausts,engine vibes when the weathers hot,not there when it's cold you know denser air more charge in the cylinders type thing.Just a thought.

 

[Duck n Dive]

Can I ask a simple question?

Reading back from the beginning of this thread I've noticed that it appears you always mention the vibes as "when riding ..... riding in hot/cold weather .....when riding at 3000rpm ...." etc.


Soooooo ... is this something you are feeling while under way ?


Now it might sound daft ..... but are you sure you've eliminated non engine problems?

For example a drive chain which is not best oiled/lubed/adjusted/worn can give what you describe.


:dunno:

 

[Tribal-Wolf]

TBH if I'd had this much trouble for this long I'd have got rid and bought a better one. I used to work with these kind of faults on performance cars but I got paid for that, I'm buggered if I would have spent so much time on my own. Bikes are meant to be fun. If you can't find the fault and don't have the funds to have it fixed elsewhere then move it on and get summat you can ride. I know there is a satisfaction in fixing it but at the cost of so much stress I doubt it's worth it, life is too short. sh1tehppns

 

[SpanishJohn]

I know this might sound fucking stupid feel free to chuck abuse at me but have you checked your spark plugs,plug caps,HT leads,coils? weak spark maybe that would explain the sooty exhausts,engine vibes when the weathers hot,not there when it's cold you know denser air more charge in the cylinders type thing.Just a thought.

I changed my plugs as a matter of course when I did the valve clearances back in September. I have not done the coils or caps. If it was the coils or caps wouldn't the problem happen all the time?

Can I ask a simple question?

Reading back from the beginning of this thread I've noticed that it appears you always mention the vibes as "when riding ..... riding in hot/cold weather .....when riding at 3000rpm ...." etc.


Soooooo ... is this something you are feeling while under way ?


Now it might sound daft ..... but are you sure you've eliminated non engine problems?

For example a drive chain which is not best oiled/lubed/adjusted/worn can give what you describe.

My drive chain is very well maintained and lubed. I have a laser alignment tool so I know it is true. Again, if it was the drive chain, why is it weather dependent?

TBH if I'd had this much trouble for this long I'd have got rid and bought a better one. I used to work with these kind of faults on performance cars but I got paid for that, I'm buggered if I would have spent so much time on my own. Bikes are meant to be fun. If you can't find the fault and don't have the funds to have it fixed elsewhere then move it on and get summat you can ride. I know there is a satisfaction in fixing it but at the cost of so much stress I doubt it's worth it, life is too short. sh1tehppns

You may well be right lol. I have promised myself that if it isn't fixed by spring then it has to go. I do have the funds to have it fixed elsewhere, but I can't just write someone a blank cheque. One option is to take the bike to Jaws and let him deal with it. I guess if the ECU doesn't fix the prob then that will be my next and final option.

Once again many thanks for all the help and suggestions so far..

Spanish

 

[SpanishJohn]

This is going to sound wierd, but I have just done 40 miles up and down the M3 in warm sunshine, bike running in safe mode as the KS is still disconnected, FI light on. I could swear the bike had more power than 'normal'. Engine smooth, tickover smooth - great! I guess this means the engine itself if OK (i.e. not a mechanical problem) which is a relief, and I am happy about that. So it must be one of the sensors or the ECU. I could just run the bike in safe mode all the time...

Spanish

 

[dave boyce]

I think its got something to do with temperature of a dodgy coil the hotter it gets the worse it gets,if you have a weak spark it will ignite a denser charge of fuel air as the ambient temperature rises the fuel is leaned off the weak spark struggles to ignite the fuel air causing a slight misfire this could be felt as vibration or rough running seeing as the coils and the leads are the only thing in the electrical system you haven't checked it might be worth a look..Then again I could be getting it all wrong and talking bollocks someone smarter will be along to let me know...@tu*The reason behind my thinking is my bike has the same symptoms as yours but is carb fed and doesn't have all the alien do dads the fi bikes have..