Knock sensor again...

[taffy]

ECM

Have you tried your ECM on another bike without any faults??

I have sold 4 ECM's in the past 3 months, 2 bikes had the knock sensor fault with reduced power, one had the FI light permently on with no fault codes recorded, the other one just died with no warning.

In all the years I have been working on these bikes I have never replaced any sensors except when the wiring loom mod had not been done and had fried the loom.

When the good ECM's were fitted to ALL the bikes ran sweet as a nut and with no faults.

The early ECM's code EO1 did have a few problems but were sorted in around 2000 when the EO2 ECM was fitted.

Taff.

 

[silverfox.xx]

The early ECM's code EO1 did have a few problems but were sorted in around 2000 when the EO2 ECM was fitted.

Taff.

Yup, and my ECM was a very early 02 variant, if the serial number (sequence) was anything to go by.. which I suspect it is.

SpanishJohn I hope the KS posted to you resolves the problem.. least that way you can put and end to it.. However if your ECM is working correct then a faulty KS should give fault code 25, yours is not... My moneys on it being an ECM problem. I fully understand your frustration.. :bow:

 

[SpanishJohn]

Update:

Clive is loaning me his KS :bow:. Had to order a 24mm deep socket from ebay to fit it, so awaiting both items. Also ordered myself a secondhand MAP sensor from ebay for just over ?20 - what the heck. Hopefully should be able to fit them at the weekend (one at a time obviously).

Have you tried your ECM on another bike without any faults??

I have sold 4 ECM's in the past 3 months, 2 bikes had the knock sensor fault with reduced power, one had the FI light permently on with no fault codes recorded, the other one just died with no warning.

In all the years I have been working on these bikes I have never replaced any sensors except when the wiring loom mod had not been done and had fried the loom.

When the good ECM's were fitted to ALL the bikes ran sweet as a nut and with no faults.

The early ECM's code EO1 did have a few problems but were sorted in around 2000 when the EO2 ECM was fitted.

Hi taffy,

The ECM will be my next port of call if the KS doesn't fix it :cry::cry::cry::cry:. Don't forget though, this case is slightly different - my ECM is not reporting any error.
If I was to give my ECM to someone else, they would have to be sure to try it under the right conditions, so it woud be preferrable for me to try a known good ECM on my bike, as Clive did. How much do you charge for ECM's? - given the probable cost of these things, and that I really don't want to spend any more on what could be another red herring brok3, Would you be be interested in doing a loan-before-you-buy scheme? In case your interested my ECM part number ends in E02. I can get the full serial number if it would help.

Anyway, hopefully it won't come to that.

Spanish

 

[Rave]

Smedley,

If the signal was purely black and white, then the engine would destroy itself as the ECM was continuously advancing the signal until actual knock occurred, and then retarding it again. This would be madness. I suspect the signal to be more of a gaussian type curve where the limit is set some way of peak (knock).

PS. I always run 10W40 (part synthetic), even during the summer months, though I did consider running 15W50, but didn't in the end. I change my oil every 3K miles.

Spanish

Can I have your oil after you've drained it....still got 5K left in it!!!!! Must come out like new!! Why change so early???

 

[taffy]

ECM,,,,,

,,,,, let me know how you get on with the KS. If it dose not cure the problem post it on here and we can go from there.

Taff.

 

[Oldbull]

Update:
Don't forget though, this case is slightly different - my ECM is not reporting any error.

Spanish

John if you try your ECM on a known good bike as Taff suggests, it will create your faults on the other bike. Irrespective of the knock sensor..

At no financial outlay whatsoever it will prove that your ECM IS faulty which we all think it is ;-0))

got to be worth a free shot at least before you spend any money :dunno:

 

[silverfox.xx]

Don't change your oil every 3k miles, waste of money IMHO, oil has cleaners (detergents) in it when new, changing the oil too regular means you're running on detergent. Unless you're riding in extreme conditions every 8k miles is fine. Mine comes out cleanish at 8k miles. Honda know best.... (sometimes).

 

[SpanishJohn]

OK, fitted Clive's spare KS to my bike on Thursday afternoon :bow:. Lots of black sealent came out with the old KS. Cleaned up the surfaces and installed the spare KS.

Started the bike in the garage and revved to 3K revs. No problems. I didn't have much time, but the weather was dry so I took the bike for a spin around Basingstoke, this was about 3pm so there was some traffic, but also a few bits where I could open her up. No problems, bike was lovely and smooth. I had even dared tighten the two bolts that secure the tank (which I normally have loose to minimise the vibes to by nuts). Things looking good, so much so that I ordered a new KS from DS (160 quid .)

Fiday morning, weather dry so I used it for my 40mile commute to work. Bike never been so smooth. dare I say it, but I think the problem is sorted @tu*. Well happy, I love ny BB again.

Clive, is it OK to hold on to your KS until the new one turns up?.

 

[SpanishJohn]

Knock sensor characteristics attached. Profile is clearly a gaussian distribution. If you move the fundamental freq of the KS slightly left or right, then the output will be attenuated slightly at the correct frequency, so the ECU will be fooled into advancing the timing by more than it would otherwide have done so, but the KS will still pass the test. Move the fundamental freq too much left or right and the ECU will reject the KS.

Spanish

 

[silverfox.xx]

Things looking good, so much so that I ordered a new KS from DS (160 quid .)

Clive, is it OK to hold on to your KS until the new one turns up?.

Er, I did offer mine to you at a reduced rate..

 

[SpanishJohn]

Er, I did offer mine to you at a reduced rate..

Yes I know, but I always intended to get a new one if it turned out to be the problem. From what I've read, these things have a finite life, so I don't want to risk hitting the same problem again in the near future.

Spanish

 

[silverfox.xx]

Glad you've got it sorted... I can't say I've heard of anyone with a KS go bad before.

How many miles has your bike got on it?

 

[Oldbull]

Well done John glad you sorted it mate... First one Ive heard of failing as well..
get some miles on it and let us know how its goes :bow:

 

[SpanishJohn]

Well, given its location, its probably the most stressed sensor, so its a miracle we don't here about more going. Why did mine go - who knows. Must admit, I still can't fully believe the problem is sorted, after a year of head scratching it will take a lot to convince me. I guess I won't fully relax untill next spring when the hot weather returns.

One more thing I am going to do though is wire a screened cable between the KS and the ECM, bypassing the loom altogether. Honda thought it wise on later models, so it must be worth it.

Spanish

 

[silverfox.xx]

One more thing I am going to do though is wire a screened cable between the KS and the ECM, bypassing the loom altogether. Honda thought it wise on later models, so it must be worth it.

Spanish

Thats what I have done, earthed the screen to a point on the frame at the back LH side of tank. I'm sure you've sorted the problem.. :bow:. I can't stand having anything not 100% on the bike.. hence the ECM/KS problem had to be resolved at the earliest opportunity.

 

[Tribal-Wolf]

Just maybe the excess sealant you described was having a detrimental effect on the efficiency of the knock sensor?

 

[andyBeaker]

Happy days and total respect for figuring it out.:bow:

I wouldn't even know what to knock the sensor with let alone how hard to hit it.

Re warm weather - why not use the excuse to jump on a ferry and keep riding South until you hit 30 degrees? Should get as far as Croatia or maybe Greece at this time of year. all in the interests of research of course.:-0)

 

[silverfox.xx]

Just maybe the excess sealant you described was having a detrimental effect on the efficiency of the knock sensor?

Hi TW, don't think so, both mine, IR's and the one I got from a scrappy had black silicone sealer around the threads/seat.. which I thought was a bit odd as you would think that would absorb some of the knock sensing. However I assumed it was more a matter of it filling any thread gaps, once tightened to the required Nm I guess that gives it sufficient 'connection' to the cylinder casting. Everywhere else you read that a KS should be mounted metal to metal. :dunno:

 

[SpanishJohn]

about to hit the bottle...

Update....

Since fitting the new KS I have done about 400miles with no problems, however, this was during the recent cold snap. Today, weather mild and dry and guess what, the fecking vibes are back :cry::cry::cry::cry:. Anyway, about 6 miles from home I pulled over at a bike shop for a fag and some stuff I need. About to set off and think - disconnect the KS and see what happens. So up with the tank and off with the KS connector. Everything back together and off we go... 3K rpm on comes the FI light but the vibes have almost gone. WTF! Interestingly I noticed no difference in power at all! Apart from the FI light coming on, the only difference was a drop in vibes. Is my ECU fecked?

Taffy, I have sent you a message re the ECU...

Spanish

 

[smedly]

the ecu goes into a safe mode ignoring sensors etc and runs the bike using a fixed map, now that you have ruled out the KS perhaps you should read through all the previous advice and suggestions and start thinking outside the box, we are hear to help as much as possible................I can't help thinking baro sensor as you keep mentioning it's weather related/atmospheric pressure