Indicating at roundabouts...

[Barrie]

I Spain, I believe it's an offence NOT to indicate your intention to change lanes.

 

[T.C]

I Spain, I believe it's an offence NOT to indicate your intention to change lanes.

There is a difference between "indicating your intent" and "I am doing it" and one of the reasons why the Spanish do not have a particularly good driving record.

By and large, if you do not have the space or time to allow 4 flashes of the indicator before changing position then it becomes a waste of time and it becomes a misleading and inappropriate signal.

 

[Dickiebird]

May I just say, I always indicate at junctions roundabouts etc, whether anyone else is on that stretch of road ,or not. I'll tell you why. I have always done this, because after a while it becomes second nature , so you don't forget when it really matters. I'm sticking to this system regardless of what anyone else may say. P.S. I remember back to when Stirling Moss was taking his bike test ( on a Triumph Tina scooter ! ), and he was asked why he didn't signal at a right turn junction. His excuse was "There was nobody else about ". The examiner told him it made no difference, and failed him !

 

[T.C]

May I just say, I always indicate at junctions roundabouts etc, whether anyone else is on that stretch of road ,or not. I'll tell you why. I have always done this, because after a while it becomes second nature

And I rest my case. You have more or less admitted that you are too lazy to think for yourself :whi5tl: and you do it through habit rather than actually think about what you are doing or who you are indicating to. So on that basis I bet 95% of your signals are a wast of time, incorrectly given or misleading.

Try thinking for yourself rather than doing something through habit, you might find it actually works better, and forget DSA or driving test requirements, 95% of what is required for test can be binned as soon as you past your test anyway.

 

[bishbosh]

... 95% of what is required for test can be binned as soon as you past your test anyway.

When I did my IAM test came up to Chesterfield from M1, three lanes approaching a 5-exit roundabout with middle one indicated on road to go ahead, right to go right and left to go left (!) so sat in traffic and waited my turn. After I passed the examiner asked why I didn't just use the right hand lane using the power and maneuverability of the bike to make the exit - I blamed my observer as he advised me not to filter.

 

[T.C]

When I did my IAM test came up to Chesterfield from M1, three lanes approaching a 5-exit roundabout with middle one indicated on road to go ahead, right to go right and left to go left (!) so sat in traffic and waited my turn. After I passed the examiner asked why I didn't just use the right hand lane using the power and maneuverability of the bike to make the exit - I blamed my observer as he advised me not to filter.

In my last post I was referring to the DSA test but there are issues with some of the IAM and RoSPA observers as well which is another subject for another day.

There are also issues with some of the Police examiners as some do not hold advanced class 1 tickets, but that is also a subject for another day.

 

[Centaur]

That's a massive leap in logic, TC.

And I rest my case. You have more or less admitted that you are too lazy to think for yourself :whi5tl: and you do it through habit rather than actually think about what you are doing or who you are indicating to. So on that basis I bet 95% of your signals are a wast of time, incorrectly given or misleading.
Try thinking for yourself rather than doing something through habit, you might find it actually works better, and forget DSA or driving test requirements, 95% of what is required for test can be binned as soon as you past your test anyway.

I. too, always indicate even if no-one is affected on the off chance I have made a mistake in checking. Ever make one, TC? :-0) Better to indicate CORRECTLY every time than not indicate when it is needed. I have been driving for nearly 60 years, high mileage all over the world and thankfully have only had one car accident where a cyclist rode into me when I was stationary. Do I put this down to my excellent driving skills? No. I put it down to being aware and assuming every other driver is not. On a motorway I take my space with me and try always to know who else is in my space and would be affected if I brake or change lanes. I always turn the radio off in towns or when I am approaching a hazard. My friend who is a driving examiner gave me a private test recently and he said he was nitpicking on the sole minor. Don't decry habits if they are good ones. Do you actively think about putting the clutch in on a gear change or is it habitual? Rant over. :-0)

 

[T.C]

I. too, always indicate even if no-one is affected on the off chance I have made a mistake in checking. Ever make one, TC? :-0) Better to indicate CORRECTLY every time than not indicate when it is needed. I have been driving for nearly 60 years, high mileage all over the world and thankfully have only had one car accident where a cyclist rode into me when I was stationary. Do I put this down to my excellent driving skills? No. I put it down to being aware and assuming every other driver is not. On a motorway I take my space with me and try always to know who else is in my space and would be affected if I brake or change lanes. I always turn the radio off in towns or when I am approaching a hazard. My friend who is a driving examiner gave me a private test recently and he said he was nitpicking on the sole minor. Don't decry habits if they are good ones. Do you actively think about putting the clutch in on a gear change or is it habitual? Rant over. :-0)

No it is not a leap in logic. I stand by what I have said.

I agree with you that it is better to indicate correctly, but that is the point I have been making, very few do give correct signals and most drivers and riders are too dam lazy to think about what they could be doing better is NOT a good habit.

So you have a friend who is a driving examiner? Whooppee doo.... If you drove to the driving test standard, then it tells me that your driving standard is at a pretty low standard in the first place as it is generally accepted that the current driving test is not fit for purpose.

I do not decry habits that are good, but giving poor and incorrect or misleading signals is not a good habit which is the problem with most motorists.

 

[stormer]

Ah the old potato.....don't bother with a signal if there is nobody to signal to :violin: giving a signal takes takes SSSOOOO much effort on a bike doesn't it !
The road plan is checked in both scenarios to observe the position of all other road users and pedestrians etc so what exactly are you saving by not flicking your thumb :dunno: If there is nobody around to warrant a signal then there is nobody around to confuse with a signal! We talk about using signals correctly to transmit our intentions to others then not giving a signal is taking the risk that you have missed another road user somewhere in your plan for the sake of a thumb twitch.....:xm

 

[Barrie]

I hesitated to contradict a professional driver but the link I have posted reflects the way I use indicators when entering/exiting a roundabout.
http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/appendix-to-the-highway-code

I'm sorry to say this but if TC failed me for adhering to the highway code, I would have to challenge his decision.

It really pisses me off when drivers, on motorways, move from lane three to lane two to lane one then take the exit with no indication of their intentions. I believe their actions are because they are travelling too fast and not planning far enough ahead. The indicators on my car have a function that allows the indicator to be operated with only a soft touch. The indicators then flash three or four times. Useful for lane changes because you don't need to cancel the action. Some of the most inconsiderate driving I have seen has been by police officers. Probably think they are above having to lead by example.

 

[mikeyw64]

I'm with T.V and use my indicators if & when necessary. I also supplement them on occasion with a hand signal eg turning left into a minor road from a major road especially if another vehicle is waiting to come out or when getting back into the nearside lane of the motorway prior to exiting it.

I'm also a big fan of the French use of indicators when shooting down the outside lane

 

[T.C]

I hesitated to contradict a professional driver but the link I have posted reflects the way I use indicators when entering/exiting a roundabout.
http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/appendix-to-the-highway-code

Doing it as an automaton proves the point. They are telling you to do it by numbers and if you look for example at the 10 O'clock exit, 2 of the indicator flashes are after you have left the roundabout.

For exiting at 12 O'clock you are giving a signal to continue straight ahead.

By the time other traffic realises what you are doing you are off the roundabout anyway, and if you took out the roundabout what would the junction be? A crossroads..... Next you will be telling me that you signal to continue straight on at a x roads because the principal is the same.

Taking the exit at 2 O'clock, yes, right hand signal may be beneficial but there is no benefit gained giving a left hand exit signal

And so it goes on.

If you are on a larger roundabout, then yes, you may sometimes need to give an exit signal, as said, nothing os cast in stone it is about riding plans and basing your actions on what you can see, what you can't see and circumstances you may reasonably expect to develop.

Because it is in the Highway Code does not mean it is right. I have had many conversations with the lady who writes most of it and she accepts that they have to write things as per the DSA requirements for the driving test candidates.

One of the reasons that the DSA came up with the ERS is because their 2 senior examiners went to Devizes to do the Police advanced course and jacked it in at the end of the first week because they could not hack it.

I examined our local DSA examiner at advanced level and failed him after 20 minutes the standard was so appaling. During the de-brief he says it opened his eyes to just how poor the DSA standard is.

You can quote Highway Code as much as you like, but it is guidance for the thickest lowest road user it is not law and not always good practice quoted.

Have a read through Roadcraft, you may learn something.

I cannot believe how close minded some of you are. Just hope that some of you are never involved in a crash and I am instructed as the crash investigator :whi5tl:

 

[Crazy Train]

As has been said, to use indicators when there appears to be no-one around to signal to is a good thing, especially for car drivers, perhaps it's dark, raining, car pulls out, no one to indicate to so he doesn't bother, BANG!

Cyclist with no lights slams into the car as it swings out.

Sorry T.C, but I disagree most strongly here.

Also, your disapproval of indicating left when exiting a roundabout, it helps to stop other road users joining the roundabout, and ploughing into the side of you, if they can see you intend to exit, and not carry on around.

Once again, I disagree most strongly.

 

[T.C]

I'm with T.V and use my indicators if & when necessary. I also supplement them on occasion with a hand signal eg turning left into a minor road from a major road especially if another vehicle is waiting to come out or when getting back into the nearside lane of the motorway prior to exiting it.

I'm also a big fan of the French use of indicators when shooting down the outside lane

Don't start them on hand signals, now you will really confuse the issue :bang:

 

[T.C]

As has been said, to use indicators when there appears to be no-one around to signal to is a good thing, especially for car drivers, perhaps it's dark, raining, car pulls out, no one to indicate to so he doesn't bother, BANG!

Cyclist with no lights slams into the car as it swings out.

Sorry T.C, but I disagree most strongly here.

Also, your disapproval of indicating left when exiting a roundabout, it helps to stop other road users joining the roundabout, and ploughing into the side of you, if they can see you intend to exit, and not carry on around.

Once again, I disagree most strongly.

Fine, disagree, I have no problem with that and you are entititled to have a different opinion.

Unfortunately it is much easier to demonstrate the points I have made when actually out on the road rather than in written word, but, FFS why has everyone who has chosen to disagree ignored the main word I have used which is "CONSIDER" :bang:

Everyone is clearly an expert hence the reason they are so close minded :whi5tl: fl4g71

 

[Dickiebird]

And I rest my case. You have more or less admitted that you are too lazy to think for yourself :whi5tl: and you do it through habit rather than actually think about what you are doing or who you are indicating to. So on that basis I bet 95% of your signals are a wast of time, incorrectly given or misleading.

Try thinking for yourself rather than doing something through habit, you might find it actually works better, and forget DSA or driving test requirements, 95% of what is required for test can be binned as soon as you past your test anyway.

As I said , I don't care what anybody else says. If I travel these roads of ours without thinking about what I am doing, how come I managed 46 years of accident free riding/ driving until 5 years ago next January when some stupid 19 year old tart wiped my 1st 'bird out from under me because SHE DIDN'T INDICATE before turning right at a junction. P.S. when it got to court the judge awarded me enough to buy another 'bird and a rather nice caravan and a bettercar to tow it with.man8um

 

[T.C]

As I said , I don't care what anybody else says. If I travel these roads of ours without thinking about what I am doing, how come I managed 46 years of accident free riding/ driving until 5 years ago next January when some stupid 19 year old tart wiped my 1st 'bird out from under me because SHE DIDN'T INDICATE before turning right at a junction. P.S. when it got to court the judge awarded me enough to buy another 'bird and a rather nice caravan and a bettercar to tow it with.man8um

At no time have I ever said Don't indicate :bang: FFS, what I have said is consider the options of giving the right signal at the right time with the correct meaning of intent.

What is so difficult about that?

So in your case, the female did not signal when a signal was appropriate. I am not disputing that.

At the risk of repeating myself for the umpteenth time, I am not saying do not indicate, simply think about where and when and whether there is any benefit or whether it could be misleading.

Look at my first post on the subject, I qualified most of of it in there gr0n:

 

[Dickiebird]

At no time have I ever said Don't indicate :bang: FFS, what I have said is consider the options of giving the right signal at the right time with the correct meaning of intent.

What is so difficult about that?

So in your case, the female did not signal when a signal was appropriate. I am not disputing that.

At the risk of repeating myself for the umpteenth time, I am not saying do not indicate, simply think about where and when and whether there is any benefit or whether it could be misleading.

Look at my first post on the subject, I qualified most of of it in there gr0n:

Yes, but if she had adopted MY system , she WOULD HAVE INDICATED and then I would have known what her intentions were and I could maybe have taken the appropriate actions to avoid the ensuing melee.

 

[Barrie]

Doing it as an automaton proves the point. They are telling you to do it by numbers and if you look for example at the 10 O'clock exit, 2 of the indicator flashes are after you have left the roundabout.

For exiting at 12 O'clock you are giving a signal to continue straight ahead.

By the time other traffic realises what you are doing you are off the roundabout anyway, and if you took out the roundabout what would the junction be? A crossroads..... Next you will be telling me that you signal to continue straight on at a x roads because the principal is the same.

Taking the exit at 2 O'clock, yes, right hand signal may be beneficial but there is no benefit gained giving a left hand exit signal

And so it goes on.

If you are on a larger roundabout, then yes, you may sometimes need to give an exit signal, as said, nothing os cast in stone it is about riding plans and basing your actions on what you can see, what you can't see and circumstances you may reasonably expect to develop.

Because it is in the Highway Code does not mean it is right. I have had many conversations with the lady who writes most of it and she accepts that they have to write things as per the DSA requirements for the driving test candidates.

One of the reasons that the DSA came up with the ERS is because their 2 senior examiners went to Devizes to do the Police advanced course and jacked it in at the end of the first week because they could not hack it.

I examined our local DSA examiner at advanced level and failed him after 20 minutes the standard was so appaling. During the de-brief he says it opened his eyes to just how poor the DSA standard is.

You can quote Highway Code as much as you like, but it is guidance for the thickest lowest road user it is not law and not always good practice quoted.

Have a read through Roadcraft, you may learn something.

I cannot believe how close minded some of you are. Just hope that some of you are never involved in a crash and I am instructed as the crash investigator :whi5tl:

Calm down TC, I didn't mean to upset you. On a small roundabout I can see your point about treating it as a crossroads but on a large-ish roundabout there is no crossroads scenario, is there? Generally speaking most roundabouts are circular so wherever you join it, it's the same. Are you familiar with the awful multi lane roundabout/junction where the A120 joins the M11. Absolute nightmare with multiple lane changes required depending which exit you take. A stranger to the area trying to negotiate this abortion of a junction must think they have arrived in motoring hell. NO rules of the road apply here, just take a deep breath and go for it like the locals seem to do.
I have a rule about indicators though. Do not trust anyone's indicator, it only means the lamp/bulb is working.

 

[T.C]

Calm down TC, I didn't mean to upset you.

You won't upset me.

If people can't see a different perspective or point of view then that is their problem.