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Welcome to the new B.I.R.D. Forum. Please be sure to read the "New Member / New Registered ? Please Read" thread in the Coffee Shop. This contains some important information. To become a full member ( £5.90 a year ) simply click on your user name near the top on the right I hope you enjoy the new site ................ Jaws ( John )
B
bishbosh
Guest
Get the same.
B
bishbosh
Guest
That's generous, but don't want to put you out, when are you next down Ammanford way?
... couple of bottles on homebrew wine in it for you - promise I'm better at that than electronics haha.
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Gawd knows, BB. Without a bike :cry: I don't get around so much but you are only about 55 miles away so it's not a big deal. There is something very odd here and I don't believe changing the alternator would help. As Jaws says it is an odd problem and what you are describing should not happen! Give me a call on blurb and we can chat! :-0)
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B
bishbosh
Guest
Thanks Centaur for the long chat, will get stator back on bike when weather clears up and in the meantime will send RegRec back to be tested.
My thoughts after a chat, John.
1 He has tried 2 reg/recs
2 He has tried 2 alternators
3 He has tried 2 batteries.
Overall result is not enough voltage shown to charge the battery. When checked with a meter 12. 8v was the highest seen.
Over the phone we thoroughly checked both stators with a meter on 200 ohm and 200K ohm and no short between windings and rest of stator on either alternator.
Diodes checked with ammeter today show virtually consistent figures on both reg/recs with resistance between input terminals X3 and earth terminal less than 1 ohm and open cct the other way. So I assume the rectifier part of both the reg/rec is working.
My thoughts are that if a reg/rec is getting 31v across all three phases into a set of good diodes then irrespective of any possible flukey ac voltages between yellow wires and earth with plug disconnected then we should be good to go.
This leaves two possibilities.
1 Regulator side of both reg/recs is faulty. Unlikely but BB is sending the new Reg/rec back for testing.
2 Wiring from reg/rec positive to the battery through the starter solenoid assembly is faulty. Possible in my opinion.
3 Wiring between the female alternator output socket and the reg/rec is faulty. Very possible in my opinion.
I have suggested to BB that he makes up a lead to bypass the loom and go straight from alt to reg/rec diodes. I would be inclined to make up a fused cable to go straight from the reg/rec to the battery positive and another to go straight from the reg/reg negative output to earth preferably directly to the battery. BB is happy with soldering and making up cables. :bow:
1 He has tried 2 reg/recs
2 He has tried 2 alternators
3 He has tried 2 batteries.
Overall result is not enough voltage shown to charge the battery. When checked with a meter 12. 8v was the highest seen.
Over the phone we thoroughly checked both stators with a meter on 200 ohm and 200K ohm and no short between windings and rest of stator on either alternator.
Diodes checked with ammeter today show virtually consistent figures on both reg/recs with resistance between input terminals X3 and earth terminal less than 1 ohm and open cct the other way. So I assume the rectifier part of both the reg/rec is working.
My thoughts are that if a reg/rec is getting 31v across all three phases into a set of good diodes then irrespective of any possible flukey ac voltages between yellow wires and earth with plug disconnected then we should be good to go.
This leaves two possibilities.
1 Regulator side of both reg/recs is faulty. Unlikely but BB is sending the new Reg/rec back for testing.
2 Wiring from reg/rec positive to the battery through the starter solenoid assembly is faulty. Possible in my opinion.
3 Wiring between the female alternator output socket and the reg/rec is faulty. Very possible in my opinion.
I have suggested to BB that he makes up a lead to bypass the loom and go straight from alt to reg/rec diodes. I would be inclined to make up a fused cable to go straight from the reg/rec to the battery positive and another to go straight from the reg/reg negative output to earth preferably directly to the battery. BB is happy with soldering and making up cables. :bow:
Yes.. I did suggest number 2 in post #36
OK, put the genny back in and get it all plugged up and fired up.
Set the meter to 20v DC
Put the black probe to a known earth and the red probe in to the red wire in the plug going to the reg rec.. .. That way you are going to check the voltage coming directly out of the reg rec and not the voltage reaching the battery
OK, put the genny back in and get it all plugged up and fired up.
Set the meter to 20v DC
Put the black probe to a known earth and the red probe in to the red wire in the plug going to the reg rec.. .. That way you are going to check the voltage coming directly out of the reg rec and not the voltage reaching the battery
For clarity. I knew what you meant! :-0)
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bishbosh
Guest
Good news and bad news ... !!
Good news
Put it all back together, then put prob on red/white on RegRec and on good earth and was reading 12.2 DC, so checked across battery and getting 13.4 DC!! This was whilst I was using old battery that was undercharged and the bike was warming up. So swapped out battery for the new one that had been on trickle charge and hey presto getting 14.8 across battery once bike had warmed up. At 5,000 rpm the volts drop to around 13.6 DC across the battery, but that may still be due to the bad news. Turned all lights on and indicator and still getting around 13.4 at 5,000 rpm so enough to run.
Bad news (maybe!)
Still get the AC circuit between 1st gen connector (not the RR one) and earth. There is no connection between the pins on the loom connector and earth.
All three pins and connectors showed about the same readings within a volt.
1200 rpm
15v between pins
8v between pin and earth
5000 rpm
75v between pins
37v between pin and earth
Three Points.
1. So taking it all out and putting it back together again has resolved the issue enough for the RegRec to output to battery (aka IT Crowd) - hooray!! Will take things easy, local trips and keep an eye on DC across battery.
2. There is and AC circuit if you connect pins to earth, but when they are connected to RegReg does that problem come into play at all and degrade the performance of the charging circuit?
3. I'm probably been a bit of a f"&!wit at some stage and wasted peoples time, apologies and thanks for bearing with me. :yo:
Good news
Put it all back together, then put prob on red/white on RegRec and on good earth and was reading 12.2 DC, so checked across battery and getting 13.4 DC!! This was whilst I was using old battery that was undercharged and the bike was warming up. So swapped out battery for the new one that had been on trickle charge and hey presto getting 14.8 across battery once bike had warmed up. At 5,000 rpm the volts drop to around 13.6 DC across the battery, but that may still be due to the bad news. Turned all lights on and indicator and still getting around 13.4 at 5,000 rpm so enough to run.
Bad news (maybe!)
Still get the AC circuit between 1st gen connector (not the RR one) and earth. There is no connection between the pins on the loom connector and earth.
All three pins and connectors showed about the same readings within a volt.
1200 rpm
15v between pins
8v between pin and earth
5000 rpm
75v between pins
37v between pin and earth
Three Points.
1. So taking it all out and putting it back together again has resolved the issue enough for the RegRec to output to battery (aka IT Crowd) - hooray!! Will take things easy, local trips and keep an eye on DC across battery.
2. There is and AC circuit if you connect pins to earth, but when they are connected to RegReg does that problem come into play at all and degrade the performance of the charging circuit?
3. I'm probably been a bit of a f"&!wit at some stage and wasted peoples time, apologies and thanks for bearing with me. :yo:
If you are going to continue using it, BB....
I would fit one of these. To any 12v+ with the red and any earth with the black. Tape it behind the screen where you can see it and if the voltage drops then head for home. I completely see where Jaws is coming from but I can't understand why it shows open circuit between windings and earth with the alternator unplugged. Bewildering. Like you I would try it for a while and perhaps carry a spare charged battery and tools and fit the small meter. No-one would think of buying a car without some warning device to tell if the battery stops charging and bikes should be the same. :-0)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-wire-30...hash=item235ac544c8:m:mnQEaasne8NJz4npBXdsI0Q
I would fit one of these. To any 12v+ with the red and any earth with the black. Tape it behind the screen where you can see it and if the voltage drops then head for home. I completely see where Jaws is coming from but I can't understand why it shows open circuit between windings and earth with the alternator unplugged. Bewildering. Like you I would try it for a while and perhaps carry a spare charged battery and tools and fit the small meter. No-one would think of buying a car without some warning device to tell if the battery stops charging and bikes should be the same. :-0)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-wire-30...hash=item235ac544c8:m:mnQEaasne8NJz4npBXdsI0Q
The only other thing it could be is a breakdown of the reg rec insulation.. But of course that is not possible as the AC was measurable with the reg rec disconnected
It is more than likely the insulation on the gen coils is breaking down under load
It is more than likely the insulation on the gen coils is breaking down under load
B
bishbosh
Guest
I'm going to email Eletrex and see if they can give an answer, but I like the idea of the volt meter - def worth doing anyway.
@tu*
@tu*
B
bishbosh
Guest
OK then, spoke to tech guy at Electrex and he said that my AC volts back to earth is a bit of an anomaly seeing that I am getting correct level of AC volts between the pairs and that the battery is charging when connected.
The only thing he can think of is that there must be some connection being made in the presence of the oil, he also said they test at 500 AC volts, but he did say I should be ok to use it because of the correct readings when connected up. He did also say that if there was a leak to earth then readings across pairs, load test and battery charging would be compromised so I guess that the feedback to earth isn't manifesting when connected up to RegRec.
Lastly he said that for older bikes they are suggesting to connect the outputs of the RegRec direct to the battery studs and bypass the loom and fuse - won't do that for now.
So I'll use as is as the battery is charging and clean connections with ACF50 and get myself a volt meter to put on top of clocks.
The only thing he can think of is that there must be some connection being made in the presence of the oil, he also said they test at 500 AC volts, but he did say I should be ok to use it because of the correct readings when connected up. He did also say that if there was a leak to earth then readings across pairs, load test and battery charging would be compromised so I guess that the feedback to earth isn't manifesting when connected up to RegRec.
Lastly he said that for older bikes they are suggesting to connect the outputs of the RegRec direct to the battery studs and bypass the loom and fuse - won't do that for now.
So I'll use as is as the battery is charging and clean connections with ACF50 and get myself a volt meter to put on top of clocks.
Hello again, BB.
Meter is always a good idea. Three colour leds are available but IMHO a meter is best. :-0)
Meter is always a good idea. Three colour leds are available but IMHO a meter is best. :-0)
I have lost count of the amount of 'discussions' I have had with the so called tech guy there.
He may be brilliant in his field but ( and this is purely my opinion based on interacting with the person) I have a shrubbery that knows more about geny's in bikes than he does.
For instance..
The reason you have SOME charge going to the battery is because two phases are working fine.. It is not strange, weird or unusual
As soon as you put headlights on or start drawing current more than a couple of amps the other two phases get over loaded..
They test it on 500v AC ??
So at best have a very rough idea what the genny is doing
And if nothing is done you WILL take out the third phase in the reg rec as you are overloading the working two by a third ...
And that fookin RUBBISH about connecting to the battery ?
He will say that cos all the new units they are sending out are no longer supplied with plugs, but instruction to go straight to the battery
There is technically nowt wrong with that at all.. In fact it is just fine.. But it does mean the unused socket is just floating about.. They suggest you ( and this is a direct quote ) just put some tape over it
He is spouting the latest company position, not what is best practice
I am saying no more as I am BLOODY angry about all the rubbish and feel I will post something I may later regret
He may be brilliant in his field but ( and this is purely my opinion based on interacting with the person) I have a shrubbery that knows more about geny's in bikes than he does.
For instance..
The reason you have SOME charge going to the battery is because two phases are working fine.. It is not strange, weird or unusual
As soon as you put headlights on or start drawing current more than a couple of amps the other two phases get over loaded..
They test it on 500v AC ??
So at best have a very rough idea what the genny is doing
And if nothing is done you WILL take out the third phase in the reg rec as you are overloading the working two by a third ...
And that fookin RUBBISH about connecting to the battery ?
He will say that cos all the new units they are sending out are no longer supplied with plugs, but instruction to go straight to the battery
There is technically nowt wrong with that at all.. In fact it is just fine.. But it does mean the unused socket is just floating about.. They suggest you ( and this is a direct quote ) just put some tape over it
He is spouting the latest company position, not what is best practice
I am saying no more as I am BLOODY angry about all the rubbish and feel I will post something I may later regret