Vibration

[Fodder]

The forum search aint working on the site and I've gone blind looking for threads on this, so, new thread I'm afraid......

Hurtling back up to St. Malo on Saturday the bike suddenly developed engine vibration (in fact it was so sudden I initially thought it was just a change in road surface). Pulling the clutch in and coasting showed that it was indeed the engine. The thing is that the vibes are a bit 'variable'. Sometimes not to bad, sometimes very noticable, all at different Revs. The changes are subtle but the vibes are always there.

Now this is a bit academic really as the the bike is only about 10 months old (4500mls) and is still under warranty, so it will be heading back to the dealer for a fix. I'm just curious as to what may be causing it, balancers? CCT? Aside from that, it's nice to go in to a dealership armed with the sort of information that indicates that you know what you are talking about.

Paul

 

[Bruce H]

Well I wish you good luck Fodder!

I just had V & J Honda in Bridgewater do the 12k service on the day my 2yr warranty expired, also asked them to correct the vibration problem I have. The man who serviced my bike has an 02 xx and said that his vibrates worse than mine but his is definitely the cam chain flapping around (at about 6k I think).
He rode mine and they spoke to Honda UK who stated that the vibration is a characteristic of the bike. He also checked the balance shafts which he says were correct.
I am not sure what to do now but will probably approach Honda myself because I loved the smoothness of the bike, but now the buzzing through pegs and bars around 4000rpm in higher gears annoys me because that is cruising speed on some roads.

 

[frenchuk]

characteristic of the bike my :m , mine just had its 12,000 miles service and is as smooth as a baby's bottom, well was before a cretin threw me of my bike!

 

[Fodder]

Interesting, I'll let you know how I get on. So far I can't fault the dealer I bought mine from. Had a panel replaced under warranty with no arguments (even though it was a legit claim on my part, the damage could have been seen as questionable by them).

I've sort of got used to the vibes today, however I have absolutely no intention of being fobbed off with 'well they do that'. Even if it means spending a lot of time camped out at dealers the problem will be resolved.

 

[Bruce H]

Frenchy - it's nice to know there are some smooth ones about!
Fodder, yes, I was fobbed off I suppose. I hope Honda doesn't start trying to call it a Tactile RPM Indicator though.
(Dey all do dat don't day doh?)

 

[DonJohn]

Check the Cam Chain Tensioner THUS:
Remove the right plastic in front of your right knee (One can work out a way to R/R this item without removing the bodywork!)

The CCT is on the left, its nose facing you, just under the water hose and is held in by two screws. It has a screw in its nose center.
Remove the nose screw and insert a screwdriver of 4.5mm or less diameter.

The screwdriver will pass through a 5mm hole an inch down and drop into a slot. Turn the slot clockwise against a very light spring.

No spring or a solid feel to the screwdriver and the CCT is bust.
If bust you may get some anti-clockwise turning against some resistance which would then be the chain being put back into the right place ......... but it'll come straight back out after some engine running of a minute or so. Don't even try.

If the CCT is bust do NOT run the engine. If you are not wearing timing gear teeth and chain you are risking a jumped tooth or more and huge engine damage.

I have a device where you yourself can set a CCT, broken spring or not, manually and permanently, but you must be able to remove the CCT and re-fit it ;(but not dismantle it).

I also modify/exchange CCTs completely fail safe for the life of the bike and will sooner or later do a tech article to explain just why, where, and how the spring breaks.

email me at djohnmacd@hotmail.com.

Cheers, Don

 

[Bruce H]

Thank you Don, I checked my CCT when you last posted those instructions and the spring is ok.
I guess mine and others problems must lie elsewhere.

 

[Fodder]

Thanks for that Don. The CCT checks out ok. I'm at the point now where I'm wondering if it's me or not, suprising how fast you can adapt to things. Anyway, I hope to get her in for a check over next week sometime. It's just a little odd that something can arise so quickely. If it is the balancers just how the hell do they go out of adjustment.....ah well.....

 

[Jaws]

14k miles and no vibes mate...
I am willing to BET it is one of the balancers out of wack.
It is NOT a characteristic of the Bird at all.. In fact Honda would be more than a bit miffed if they knew one of there dealers was saying such a thing.. The Bird is renowned not for vibes but for its smoothness !
Yes, there are some out there that vibe, and there are some folk who are more sensative to the vibes that others, but overal, as I said b4, the Bird is NOT renowned for vibes !

 

[DonJohn]

Jaws. You suggest "Balancer out of whack" ..... but isn't the only way it can get out of whack by the rubbers inside it ...and they do not deteriorate, or do they?? Poor mesh adjustment may cause a whine or a rattle but not vibes ..... surely? ... and the mesh is easy enough to adjust? That apart something has to break, not slip, for balancers to unbalance the ship...you've got to dismantle alot of engine/box to set/re-set them properly, neh? ....... Though that said, I agree it sounds like balancers!

Got too many folk with this impossible vibe BB problem. Who?
Birdinflight got so fed up he traded his new one for a carb version.
Fodder had it start while at speed going to St Malo
Bruce H is specific about 4000 RPM
Davepu same
Lynchy's bike also has a lumpy tick-over since the vibes started.
Kenu fitted a new CCT which was good for only 500km and did not take up my free offer when his prob re-started.
...and Lynchy said the prob went away for a day only after fitting a new CCT.

Which seems to point to CCTs ....so....to test, this time with engine running!

Just remove the nose screw, insert the 4.5mm dia screwdriver into the slot an inch down. Hold lightly and run the motor. Screwdriver will constantly vibrate and turn 1/4 turn or so of its own accord depending on RPM.

..NOW, with the engine running, turn the screwdriver anti-clockwise a bit firm but not tightly (you are helping the spring) and see if the vibes stop or reduce. If they do then it may not be the first CCT with a binding, not yet broken, spring.
DO NOT TURN IT CLOCKWISE, not even for just a bit to "see what happens" unless you really want to see!!!

HONDA quality is so great but on BBs and VTR/Superhawks there's 2 identical probs. CCTs and alternator control units. Neither problem seems to be dealt with since 1997ish in spite of VTR/Superhawk owners mass protests to Honda. See on the net.

Other vibes in quick order. Tool or junk caught under tank, loose exhaust down pipes, exhaust mounted solidly. Broken/loose/no rubber at centre exhaust mount (near join). Inside "O' ring of internal handlebar weight has come off, letting lead hit the handlebar a loose/poor contact of an ignition coil LT wire ......and for bikes run in UK traffic one or more fouling
plugs....and now I'm stuck....so,

Back to Jaws, or have Honda mis-identified the CCT problem and screwed up royally?

....Or after all, in spite of Kenu and Lynchy's short term CCT remedy will it turn out to be the clutch?

I for one would like to know, to die happy!

 

[Fodder]

Mmmm.....had another play with the CCT, no improvment. We'll just have to see what the verdict is when I get it back to the dealer......should be fun!

 

[Bruce H]

And mine is booked in for next Thursday.
I will do the running CCT check and swap the engine sprocket for the worn original one that has rubber in it, to see if that makes a difference.

 

[Fodder]

Got her booked in for Tuesday this week, I'll let you know how I get on and we can compare notes.

 

[DonJohn]

A friend came to me as his 2 year old FIAT was "vibrating" and sometimes lacked a little power "on hills" not sorted out by the local Fiat man and his sock-it-in-the-computer kit. A missfire is a missfire. Fiat use one coil for each pair of cylinders just like Honda and one of those coils was breaking down internally, but it goes to show that one man's idea of "vibration" and "lack of power" may be another's simple missfire. A Fiat with 70 bhp running on 3 cylinders giving less than 45 bhp "vibrated and lacked a little power on hills". A BB still gives a bundle of bhp on 3 cyls at low revs and, thank God, we are not all mechanically minded enough to sniff out a misfire on 4 cyls let alone 6 or 12 with the blip of a loaded throttle!

So blind guess, based on Fiats, go for a new set of plugs curing the problems. Mine were hopeless at 4,000 miles, and again at 18,000 miles not forgetting some
XXXXXXYYYYY plugs sold by one of the big "traders" that were utter rubbish within a few hundred miles.
New set of plugs? Read NGK /HONDA. Honda sell the right plugs competitively and they are NGK. The only plugs I've ever had problems with were, from the beginning of the promos years and years ago, platinum tipped and there's still at least one manufacturer out there who's promoting rubbish.

Without the problem cured I'd be having a check for loose con-rods/bearings run; at least one would then know there's no disaster afoot. Found the lot loose on an almost new Chev Camaro once.

BALANCERS: In the name of science, you understand, I tackled all three balancer adjusters with all sorts of silly positions but could not get my bike to vibrate. A whine or a hiss, yes. Do not try this unless you are mechanically sympatico enough to know what each adjuster does and the damage you could do....and for those who do know, the Honda workshop manual P12-22, top, has got the settings wrong for those building a motor from cold, but gets it right for a warm engine adjustment ...........Just as the shop manual P21-8 [the bracketed bits on the left of the page] is wrong on CBS brakes which may be why some hero-mag testers do not seem to know what the hell they are doing, fall off and then produce photos to prove the blisteringly obvious.



Don

 

[wedge]

my 02 bird vibrates, an 01 I test rode didn't vibrate at all. I distinctly remember being impressed at having to look at the rev counter to see what sort of engine speed I was doing. I didn't particulary notice the vibes on my bike, I thought it was just because the engine was new and tight, until I had finished running it in, perhaps because I was keeping the revs down and varying the engine speed and being fairly gentle, etc

I posted a few messages here about it a few weeks ago. I took it to Honda Chiswick and got fobbed off with some nonsense about later bikes having a reputation for being harsher, and that mine was not much worse than their demonstrator.

I got a Haynes manual and adjusted the balancer shafts (top one was fine but the bottom one appeared to be about 180 deg out) it has not made any difference to the vibration, though it did seem to improve the gear shift and quieten the engine which is some consolation.

My bike has now done 2500 miles.

I have a suggestion, which might sound a little perverted, perhaps we should all meet up and compare vibes sometime ?

 

[DonJohn]

Once again the forum duplicates a post (the one below) and will not let me delete the duplication but am allowed to edit it. Done.

 

[DonJohn]

Wedge,

So you found the punch mark on the balancer shaft facing up? and faced it down? (Which would put it correct if you then adjusted it).

It occurs that the top (rear) balancer itself can be checked for correct assembly position by unscrewing the large inspection cap behind the CCT and looking/feeling that the flat top of the balance weight is facing up and parallel to the cylinder head when cyls 1 & 4 are at TDC.

To check the front, which should be the same according to the pic in the shop manual, you'd have to remove the oil sump....and the exhaust to do that.

Good luck, Don.

 

[wedge]

nah, just followed the Haynes manual, turned it counter-clockwise til it whined then turned it clockwise til it chattered then turned it back til it neither whined nor chattered.

I did the bottom one first, as I turned it counter-clockwise for the first time the engine got quieter then started whining as I turned it further, the mid point turned out to be roughly 180 degress counter clockwise from where it was before I started. I can't see any punch marks on either.

I noticed that you can turn the bottom counter-clockwise til it whines then turning it the other way, clockwise, go from whining, to quiet, to chattering, to quiet again then finally whining.

I have tried setting them both to slightly whiny and then increased in small increments right through to full chattering and it had no noticeable affect on the secondary, buzzy, vibration, but it has improved the gear change, whether thats a coincidence or not I don't know, and with them adjusted as per the manual the engine is running quieter.

I think I mentioned in one of my earlier posts that the vibes I get on my bike are probably no worse than I remember my ZRX-1100 having (I have also owned a KTM Duke so I know what REAL vibration feels like !) but thats not the point, the bird sells on, among other things, its turbine like smoothness.

When I took my bike to the dealer to have it looked at the "mechanic" at Chiswick Honda confirmed that it was buzzy, but no worse than their 03 demo bike and that the later bikes are harsher.

He reckoned he had checked the balancer shafts and engine mounting bolts and gave the engine a good look over but if he had done he would have had to have picked the bit of blue tack out of the head of a couple of the fairing screws and stuck it back in afterwards which I doubt, I think I was fobbed off somewhat.

The vibes are most noticeable at around 3500/4000 and 7000/7500, for me this is where the engine spends most of its time, either cruising or in waiting-to-attack mode Below 3500 its very smooth, for all thats worth.

It's only the utter competence in every other area that has stopped me getting very disappointed. I would like to try another vibey bike to see if its just me being over-sensitive
:}

 

[Bruce H]

Hello Wedge. It's a nuisance isn't it?
Sounds like mine. Tomorrow my bike is going to have the balancers checked and adjusted, hopefully properly and hopefully under now expired warranty, but after what you say I fear now that it may not effect a solution.

Your idea for a 'try the vibes' swap sounds good to me. I'll be at the Lord Derby this evening with a few others so that's a possibility but it might be easier another time and closer to home.

 

[Fodder]

Well, I got my bike back yesterday and guess what, no improvement. I was told that the problem was some form of imbalance in the injector system and a linkage needed adjusting.

So it begins, the hackles begin to rise, the urge to take extreme action wells up from the depths and teeth sink into the bit. I hate it when you have to cause mayhem to get something sorted.

This vibration is annoying rather than worrying. The bike certainly does not vibrate anymore than the 600 Hornet they lent me whilst my bike was in. I'm half tempted to have a go myself, I have the mechanical prowess, but there is a principle at stake, it's way within warranty and Honda need to sort it or suffer.

Don is right, this does seem to be a problem for quite a few people. The response from Honda dealers seems to be inconsistent and so far nobody appears to have had it resolved. Perhaps it's time to start operating as a 'collective' to give Honda some flack about this problem.