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Track Day advice.

  • Thread starter Paddy Dougan
  • Start date
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Paddy Dougan

Guest
I've just booked me first track day with Barmy Ben, c7u8
any advice on setup for the Bird, hints tips welcome.
PS same build as Ben but the heavy wieght version............. 105 kilos

It's @ Brands.................



:h
 

Samster

chamon motherf*cker
Heavyweight version?

I'm 96kg or thereabouts, and Ben's an inch taller and bigger build than me so I reckon Ben's gotta be 110kg? That makes you the lightweight version!
 
P

Paddy Dougan

Guest
Samster,
you old smoothie! :yo:
how you doin?
Any chance you'll be able to make ti to the Ace on the 14th Aug?
p.
 

Samster

chamon motherf*cker
Quite possibly Paddy..........dans le cage though unfortunately as I'm bikeless!
 

Fat Bert

Registered User
Paddy

Most agree on here that keeping the tyres at 42psi back and front is important!

Enjoy ya day :)
 

PsychoBikerBen

Psychotic Artworker. RIP
Fat Bert said:
Most agree on here that keeping the tyres at 42psi back and front is important!

Enjoy ya day :)

Er NO!
On the track (and I mean a proper one) riding a Blackbird You should be running 31psi at the front and 30psi at the rear.
 

Cyclops

Registered User
Ben

:dunno: not wishing to stir the shite or owt :rolleyes:


but whats the differance in



blatting round a track like prestwold or Darley Moor




and blatting round a track like say Brands :dunno:



does Brands have proper special race track tarmac, proper race track bends etc etc



please enlighten us more
 

Fat Bert

Registered User
Err NO!!! Ben~~

Dropping the tyre pressures by 25% :eek: :eek: :eek:
and you will overheat the tyre carcass and run the serious risk of the entire boot delaminating

I've seem what happens then cos it happened to Cyclops in Holland and it aint funny!!

Lets ask the Tyre Guru 1200 Pete to add his bit but IMHO 30/31 is too dangerous
 

PsychoBikerBen

Psychotic Artworker. RIP
Fat Bert said:
Dropping the tyre pressures by 25% :eek: :eek: :eek:
and you will overheat the tyre carcass and run the serious risk of the entire boot delaminating

I've seem what happens then cos it happened to Cyclops in Holland and it aint funny!!

Lets ask the Tyre Guru 1200 Pete to add his bit but IMHO 30/31 is too dangerous

Tyre pressures are dropped which in turn makes the carcass flex and bend/twist in greater ammounts. This is where heat comes from in tyres, from the molecules in the rubber moving about in sort of a kinetic energy way (thermokinetic i think) not from the abrasion in contact with the track.

Fitting the higher pressures means the tyre does not flex as much, therefore decreasing the ammount of temp.

There is also the argument of the increase in surface connection patch with lower temperatures, as the tyre is more 'squashed' to the track, therefore the actual contact patch on the track is higher...

Both are the reasons for running lower pressures.

The lower the tyre pressure the more the tyre deforms. The more the tyre deforms, the more friction there is between the tyre and the road surface. The more friction, the more heat. The more heat, the greater the opportunity the tyre has to regenerate itself by shedding the 'used' layers of rubber (to a point). This deformation of the tyre also creates a bigger contact patch at the cost of a little stability.

This is desirable at a racetrack. You want grip. Tyres that are used purely on the track wear the edges first because on a racetrack you generate much more force on the edge of the tyre. You want the tyre to deform, heat and literally 'shed' the used layers of rubber. On the road you have other considerations. The stability or handling of the tyre is extremely important, as you don't have the controlled conditions of a racetrack. There are other road users and emergency situations that you just don't have on the track. You spend more time with the bike upright on the road, no matter how good a rider you are! This means that tyre deformation actually works against you. Now it's deforming when the bike is upright. This means it's wearing quicker in the centre and will 'square off'. This changes the profile and the handling and grip of the tyre. The higher the pressure, the less it will deform giving you the best possible tyre life and handling.

Tyres of 20 years ago aren't a patch on today. A tyre that is designed to be run in a pressure range has a compound that will grip if set in that range.

This means that not only would you run a higher pressure on the road, if you are carrying bigger loads than normal, you would probably increase the pressure.


Now - If your clued up on a track day, what you would do is run a Blackbird at 31 & 30, ride a session and as soon as you get into the pit garage, take a pressure reading. You want to see what your tyres are running when they're hot. If they are still below the optimum pressure, then you top up with a tad of air or let some out if your optimum pressure is exeeded.

Hot air expands, cold air is denser. Tyres get put through the stresses harder on a track than they do on the road simply because you are accelerating harder, braking harder, carrying more lean etc. As explained above the flex in the tyre generates heat and therefore the air inside the tyre expands creating too much pressure. At road pressures the extra heat generated on the track will cause the tyre to go too far over the optimum pressyre and you're handling will suffer.

Some symptoms of running your tyre too hard - reduced stability under braking (tyre no longer 'squashes' into the tarmac widening your contact patch). Less grip, as you are reducing your tyres ability to flex on the tarmac providing the mechanical grip. You will lose feel from the front and, depending on your enthusiasm with the twist grip, you'll spin the tyre on acceleration etc. All ingredients which could end up chucking you and your machine down the road.



Remember bert - if you start with 31 & 30 when they're cold- they'll have a lot more pressure once you're half way into a good session.

Now Pete tests tyres for us and there's nowt wrong with that but I happen to have talked to Sarah J about tis and she races in 'Bemsee Minitwins'
Also have spoken to Steve Weeks who races in the 'Derby Phoenix 750/1000 Twins series' and they both will spend ages going on about why you drop your pressures on the track
 

PsychoBikerBen

Psychotic Artworker. RIP
Cyclops said:
:dunno: not wishing to stir the shite or owt :rolleyes:


but whats the differance in



blatting round a track like prestwold or Darley Moor




and blatting round a track like say Brands :dunno:



does Brands have proper special race track tarmac, proper race track bends etc etc



please enlighten us more

Oh, and Cyclops mi ol mucker, I don't know what the surface is like at prestwold or Darley Moor but doing a track day and not a rider instruction day, they don't tell you to slow down or that your going too fast.
 

Fat Bert

Registered User
Will have to agree to disagree Ben

Cos NONE of the above mentioned people ride a heavy BLACKBIRD on the track

Your physics theories may well be correct

BUT due to the sheer weight and bulk of the BIRD let alone the way she delivers the Horses will put already pressured [no pun] tyres under even more strain - therefore logic dicates that something has to let go/give

Why do you think the major tyre manufacturers make tyres specific for the BIRD et al?

The BIRD isn't an R1 or a CBR6 - race/track rules don't apply the same

IMHO running at 25% less psi will be dangerous and I don't want to see you hurt mate

I'm not a tyre or physics expert - but last time I was on a "closed circuit" I let out some air!! Dropped down to around 34/36 - went back out on circuit and the bike just didn't handle the same - wallowed into corners - squatted and squirmed under acceleration coming out

That was the only time ever that the Vipers have given me a moment in over 2000 miles - in all weathers - wet or dry

Draw your own conclusions?

Besides...........

What are you using the track day for?

Lap Times or "enhanching your rider skills"?

If it's the former - buy DS's Track bike

If it's the latter...........altering quiet radically the cornering abilities of the bike, won't help you be a better/quicker/safer rider out on the road because it's a "Track Environment" and not real road situations
 
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Samster

chamon motherf*cker
Someone told me once that if your rubber 'bobbles' then your pressure is too high to start with and you should drop it until at the end of a session your rubber's roughed up but not bobbled?

Anyone?
 

PsychoBikerBen

Psychotic Artworker. RIP
Fat Bert said:
Cos NONE of the above mentioned people ride a heavy BLACKBIRD on the track

Your physics theories may well be correct

BUT due to the sheer weight and bulk of the BIRD let alone the way she delivers the Horses will put already pressured [no pun] tyres under even more strain - therefore logic dicates that something has to let go/give

Why do you think the major tyre manufacturers make tyres specific for the BIRD et al?

The BIRD isn't an R1 or a CBR6 - race/track rules don't apply the same

IMHO running at 25% less psi will be dangerous and I don't want to see you hurt mate

I'm not a tyre or physics expert - but last time I was on a "closed circuit" I let out some air!! Dropped down to around 34/36 - went back out on circuit and the bike just didn't handle the same - wallowed into corners - squatted and squirmed under acceleration coming out

That was the only time ever that the Vipers have given me a moment in over 2000 miles - in all weathers - wet or dry

Draw your own conclusions?

Besides...........

What are you using the track day for?

Lap Times or "enhanching your rider skills"?

If it's the former - buy DS's Track bike

If it's the latter...........altering quiet radically the cornering abilities of the bike, won't help you be a better/quicker/safer rider out on the road

I was recomended those pressures by one of the garage hand at Brands and yes, he did ask what bike I was riding.
Now if you read again the bit that says ->

"Now - If your clued up on a track day, what you would do is run a Blackbird at 31 & 30, ride a session and as soon as you get into the pit garage, take a pressure reading. You want to see what your tyres are running when they're hot. If they are still below the optimum pressure, then you top up with a tad of air or let some out if your optimum pressure is exeeded."


You stated in your first post that you should run 42 front and back from the start & that it was important to do so and that is shit advise full stop!
Go figure yourself...yeah?
 

Fat Bert

Registered User
!!!

PsychoBikerBen said:
...that is shit advise full stop!
Go figure yourself...yeah?

No it's not - it's what Honda recommend

So..........other people reading this forum, think that it will be perfectly OK to let some air out before going on a Sunday morning ride out cos it will give them more grip?

Now that IS dangerous

Just hope for your sake you don't get hurt - enjoy your day :beer:
 
R

R2B2

Guest
Oh brilliant, now I'm really fucking confused!! :eek:

With a load of us going on an RSID day in a couple of months where we will probably attain some quite quick speeds during the day, we really need a reliable and definitive answer to this...........

Not that I think either view is unreliable, I can see points in both sides, but we MUST get this right!! :bang:

If I can't be sure of what tyre pressure to run I'm cancelling as I don't wanna write off me bike or myself :t
 

Samster

chamon motherf*cker
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm...........

Common sense tells me that you'd want to reduce your pressures by 4psi as a minimum.

If you start at 42psi and go out round a track for 10 laps I'll put money on your tyres being in the high 40's when you come in. Now that doesn't sound safe. The higher the pressure to start with the less heat increase needed to raise the pressure.

Surely you're better off starting with low enough pressures to get your tyres up to 36-42psi at the end of each session?

The only way that starting on a track with 42psi is any good is if you're going slow enough to generate no more heat than you would on the road.

In my experience less than 42 was always better than over 42. And yes, I spent 2 days once riding with 51psi in the front and 49 in the rear! Wondered why the Bird felt a little skittish! (dodgy Halfords digi pressure gauge)

I'll try and put it simply: reduce by about 4psi to start with. If you start with 42psi, the added heat generation from riding the track will mean you'll be riding around with over inflated tyres, which is a lot worse than riding with slightly under inflated tyres as there will be bugger all contact beween the tyre and the surface!

Trust your Uncle Samster. :-:
 
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R2B2

Guest
Now that you mention a 4 psi reduction Sam, I have a distant recollection of a thread from quite some time back that discussed this issue, and I think it was said then that the optimum was about 38/39, which would tie in with what you're suggesting.......

I'm not offering advice here 'cos I don't know, but I do wanna get to the bottom of this.
 

Samster

chamon motherf*cker
The bottom of it Rob is that you DO NOT want to start a track event with your normal road pressures, unless you intend to generate no more heat in your rubber than you would on the road.

Start at 42-42 and you'll end up running with seriously over inflated tyres which equals bugger all contact patch on the road.

Bert needs to have a re-think about the advice he gave!
 
E

Eff Bee

Guest
Fat Bert very incorrect. Being a national racer for many years, a former trackday instructor and being trained by Pirelli on tyre recommendations/fitments and pressures i can assure you that running the stock road pressure in the bird for a trackday isnt going to assist you in getting the most from the day and will seriously overheat the tyres.

Say the optimum hot pressure of the tyre you are running is 38psi. You will have to start out cold at around 32psi on an average summer day, say 18oc. As the tyre heats up the psi becomes greater meaning if you start at your optimum hot working pressure of 38PSI when the tyre is cold you will seriously overheat the tyre as you could end up with pressures as high as 45-48psi.

A good starting point for your bike is around the 32-32 or 34-34. The tyre will be working harder on the track than the road as it will be constantly hotter as you are cornering more consistanly, unlike the road where the tyre is heating up and then cooling down, hence the higher pressures as you wont heat them up as much.

Nitrogen in your tyres is the best way to go as it creates a more stable heat build up due to the lack of moisture and seapage which occurs with normal O2...but thats often out of reach for day to day riders.

Hope this helps, i may only race an SV650...but the principles never change regardless of weight or size..I have also raced many larger bikes and helped my husband race a 1200 bandit..same principle applied then.

Have fun though and dont forget to smile...:lol:

Thanx Sarah J
 
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