Talking of tax.. Value for money ?

[abbeytec]

Fook ME!!!

What a can of worms you have opened, Jaws!!! %$fan


Reading between the lines guys, I reckon that maybe what Jaws was asking was simply do we enjoy a level of services, whether it be the NHS, road systems, Fire brigade, refuse collection, street sweeping, Etc. which is commensurate with the amount of tax that we all pay.

I reckon the thread has got somewhat sidetracked cos some people pay more tax than others?? :dunno: and are pissed off about it :bang:

I, personally pay quite a lot of tax, but thats cos I earn quite a lot of money (Do the fookin hours though).

My main gripe with the current tax system is that we often pay tax on a tax - Just look at fuel. We pay the cost of the fuel + the treasury's cut - VAT is then added onto the COMBINED figure. How the fuck can that be right???:dunno:

I also get pissed off when I pay so much tax on my company car. I am a field service technician based from home. I visit up to 6 or 7 different sites in a day, and we have a tech on standby 24 / 7, 365 days a year. My car is as much a vital tool to me as a screwdriver or laptop, so why the hell do I get hammered for tax (whether I use it privately or not)???


Thats my thoughts anyway... :f

 

[Jaws]

Spot on Abbeytec..

At one time not so long ago I was in the top tax bracket same as a good few others on here.. this is no longer the case but I still pay a fair whack..

As Abbeytec said, I just wondered what folk thought about what they get for their lolly.. are they happy with the level of service they get or do you think you get poor value..


Put it another way.

Lets pretend you can opt out of all the state tax's and also the services.

Now get a group of you together ( say 30 ) and have to sort out your own services to replace those you have lost by opting out of the system..

Remember, this does NOT include the following which you pay for in your council tax or seperately in another bill. ( just look at the breakdown of your council tax bill for this info )

Police
Fire Brigade
Refuse collection and disposal
Water ( supply and removal of waste etc )
Electric
Gas
Roads maintanance
Street lighting
Street cleaning
Public transport .. in rural areas this is generally either private or district council controlled, so am fairly sure this would be run by local govt every where.
I am unsure of the figures but I believe only a relatively small percentage of school funding is from central govt
Even odd stuff like rat catching is funded from the council tax


Not sure what that leaves apart from the politicians and their army of pen pushers, and of course our ( underfunded ) armed forces, and a very tiny proportion of trunk roads.

As far as I can see that fictitious group of 30 opt outs will not have too much to sort out providing they do not want to go to war with any one !

 

[roXXo]

I have no problem with paying the level of taxes that I do.

I think that compared to many other countries we do get vfm.

Most people do the best job that they can do with the resources they are given but you know Joe public always wants more. It seems that there are a lot of people who want something for nothing or pay a little as possible. There is a balance to be struck in paying a fair price for a decent job.

re Politicians and their army of pen pushers.
Well the somebody has to do the paperwork and manage the civil service.
You know Jaws, there are pen pushers and office workers in the armed forces as well.
Even you have to push a pen as part of your business or as part of the BIRD admin team.

Speaking of which, Jaws.

What is your view on part of the admin team posting "how about you go screw yourself Roxxo?" ?

 

[ianrobbo1]

well in MY view, a LOT of the taxes gathered are misused/wasted on hair brained schemes, badly organised government departments and sheer laziness/incompetence on the part of upper and upper middle management, take just one example already mentioned above "by Silverone" why would anyone need 7 pen pushers and absolutely NO manual labourers to look after what is actually a LABOUR intensive part of a department!! if these government departments were run as actual businesses our tax money would be far better used and in being more efficient we would be able to afford better benefits etc.
theres my bite at the pie!! :}

 

[Jaws]

My view is that it is not my business and I will no longer get drawn into arguments between people on here..

You guys wanna argue and fight and wanna make statements likely to upset that is up to you.. This is, afteral, an open forum.

There IS a line drawn in the sand.. it is one involving common public decency.. personal insults rarely cross that line cos they are just that.. personal insults..

The world is in a sorry enough state as it is without the likes of me, a jumped up nobody, demanding things are done my way.

I do however find your question a little odd Roxxo.. Perhaps you feel FB is not entitled to an opinion ( albeit stated rather vitriolically ) as he is admin, yet you ask me ( admiin ) to give an opinion ?

It is also nothing to do with the original question .. which you answered as did others.

 

[roXXo]

I take your point Ian, but re Silverone's example, we don't know all the facts.

Sometimes there seems to be a perception that only manual labourers are worth anything and that admin. do very little or they do it inefficiently.

Just ask our own BIRD admin team, I am sure they will be only too glad to tell you how much hard work they put in.

Departments have to be managed and with the HSE aspect added, these office duties are not just very onerous but legally have to be complied with.

There are many parts to the efficiency equation.

 

[roXXo]

My view is that it is not my business and I will no longer get drawn into arguments between people on here..

You guys wanna argue and fight and wanna make statements likely to upset that is up to you.. This is, afteral, an open forum.

There IS a line drawn in the sand.. it is one involving common public decency.. personal insults rarely cross that line cos they are just that.. personal insults..

The world is in a sorry enough state as it is without the likes of me, a jumped up nobody, demanding things are done my way.

I do however find your question a little odd Roxxo.. Perhaps you feel FB is not entitled to an opinion ( albeit stated rather vitriolically ) as he is admin, yet you ask me ( admiin ) to give an opinion ?

It is also nothing to do with the original question .. which you answered as did others.

Thank you for your opinion Jaws and clarifying the Admin policy.
You are quite happy for part of the admin team to post "how about you go screw yourself Roxxo?" ?
So personal insults are ok with you.
That's fine. We all know where we stand.
Question a little odd?
No Jaws I do not feel that FB is not entitled to his opinion. You have missed the point.
As regards "nothing to do with the original question". As you know threads wander all over the place. Perhaps you would like all threads to be kept online?

 

[Wolfie]

Self employed mate of mine paid ?300 one year.


hands up if you have ever seen a poor self employed person???

As the old saying goes "you will never get rich working for somebody else"

I hate the waste of my money that goes on.

Too many rules, too many loopholes, too many people checking and chasing, too much of everything. Too little back.

 

[Jaws]

Thank you for your opinion Jaws and clarifying the Admin policy.

It aint an admin policy Roxxo... do not try and blow this up out of all proportion mate. Everyone can read all the above and can see whats going on ..

Here is a policy for you...but its mine and no one elses.

Admin is two ordinary blokes. ( welllllll, fairly ordinary anyway ! )

They get pissed off sometimes same as everyone else..

Policy is that as much as possible I do not tell others what to do or say and they dont tell me what to do or say.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. ( afterall, they are like arseholes and everyone has them )

Your statement invoked an opinion that you did not like.. Now you seem to think you can involve me in your argument with FB..
I am quite happy to have an argument with you about something else, but not about what someone else has said.. afterall, it is THEIR opinion.

Looking back over recent months it seems you want to argue with almost every statement made on here.. has anyone said you cannot or that what you are doing is wrong ? No....

I will say this.. If FB had said he wished you harm then that would have indeed constituted an afront to common decency and no doubt things would have been said..

However, for you to start getting all bitter and twisted over a few words the type of which are used throughout the forum, just because it was agin YOU, is, quite frankly beneath you.


No doubt you will now pick out bits of the above and come back again.... You are most welcome but will not get a further response on the subject from me.

No one wants to read my rantings thats for sure.. they may think yours are worth reading I have no idea..

If you want an argument / discussion on another subject, or even on the subject of this thread, then fine.. but I will not comment beyond a referel type basis on what others say or do.

 

[RHINO]

Self employed mate of mine paid ?300 one year.


hands up if you have ever seen a poor self employed person???

As the old saying goes "you will never get rich working for somebody else"

I hate the waste of my money that goes on.

Too many rules, too many loopholes, too many people checking and chasing, too much of everything. Too little back.

You DA man 'Foxy'..... :bow:

If self employment is so bad then quit it and get a fookin job, there's loads out there if your prepared to get off ya ass and look.

I'm happy to pay my tax at present as there are many things we take for granted which are paid for from the tax & NI.
What i do object to is long term unemployed claiming there's no work about,, non working families churning out kids as though its our duty to keep them!!
Having kids is not an excuse not to work.....Emma has been a single parent for 7 years and has worked continually in that time and has used family, friends etc to assist in child minding...........
As for Ian and his CSA, if they were more fair on what they took from fathers then i feel the system would be more efficient and may allow more single parents to return to work (some absent fathers cannot afford to work because of the CSA)..

FB, you took it farrrrr to personal, i thought you were made of tuffer stuff than that.
Of course i'd like to pay less tax but lets be real, you aint done bad from your self employment what with a custom built bike, big house, loving family and all that 'JUST FOR MEN' hair dye you go through......... %$fan

Bert, chilllllllllllllll out. 8ree!

 

[Jaws]

Dunno about others, but I am self employed for the freedom it brings me..

When I was younger I did it for the wonga but nowadays it is so I can more or less do what I like.

No idea if you would consider it fortunate or not, but last year I gave all my bank statements to the chap who does my accounts, all the invoices etc, and I had to pay 997 quid tax..

I just do not earn enough to worry about having to fiddle the books.. And believe me, that is NOT a moan at all.. There is Mo and me and my bike .. thats it !
I genuinely do not need to earn a fortune to be happy..
Now you may think this next bit is a bit soft, but......

What I do need is to feel useful.. yer yer I know..

But I get a bigger kick out of being able to sort a problem out for someone on the fone than making a sale.
Life is so short and money just makes it shorter.. Having someone say something like 'fook me! Yes,, I see it now... well that was easy !' is worth shed loads.. you cannot buy that sort of thing

No, I aint mr fookin Altruistic ! .. I do it cos I like doing it, and for the freedom it brings. Selfish to the end me. Simple as that !

 

[roXXo]

I have no problem with folk expressing views and arguing points. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. As I am.

I am not bitter or twisted over anything.
My statement invoked an opinion that I did not like.
Not true Jaws.
"How about you go screw yourself" was not an opinion from FB.

I personally, would never post " how about you go screw yourself " in reply to something I don't agree with.

So you think that a remark like that is acceptable. Especially from a member of the admin team. Fine.
That really sends out a a friendly open message to guests who read this forum.

Yes people can read what's going on Jaws and if people can only resort to abuse in reply to a post then this forum is poorer for it.

Would you have reacted and posted in the same way in reply to my question to you if a I had posted "how about you go screw yourself" in reply to a female member on this forum.

Stop digging Jaws.

 

[roXXo]

Back to the subject of this thread.

There may always be room for improvement but every Government since the 1st Thatcher administration has tried to cut waste and make savings in the quest for efficiency.

Think about your own household budgets. They are difficult enough to make work let alone budgets of business, councils and countries.
Unfortunately making efficiency savings ultimately means cost cutting in man power. The ordinary working man.

Never as easy as it at first seems.

As I have posted before, compared to other countries, we do not do too badly.

 

[Jaws]

Stop digging Jaws.

LOL ! OK....

Now you see, this is something I really dislike about you Roxxo.. After all the above you post :

As I have posted before, compared to other countries, we do not do too badly.

Which I absolutely agree with...... Damn !! :}

But,

A really hard slap in the face is worse than an average slap in the face, but it is still a slap in the face after all is said and done. If you see what I mean..

Put another way.. to be robbed of your loose change is as bad as being robbed of your folding stuff in the eyes of the law.. To what degree it is wrong varies yes, but neither action is correct..

But as a mere prol and not very fiscally aware I am in no position to offer any answers or ideas to imrove things.. I merely wanted to know if the many agreed or disagreed with the original statement..

 

[roXXo]

Take your point Jaws.

We all have different interpretations of statements and regarding any posts to do with the government (of any persuasion) it is easy to post with all guns blazing.
As you know I am always one for posting an alternative viewpoint.
Not necessarily one I believe in but I like to play devil's advocate sometimes.

Mere prol and not fiscally aware :}
I am sure there are no flies on you.

We all like to get VFM. Any manager has loss control at the forefront of his mind.
The judgements and decisions we make have far reaching effects and sometimes consequences that we had not originally envisaged.

You cannot please all of the people all of the time.
It is right that government and councils should be challenged and questioned as to how our money is being spent. It keeps everybody on their toes. But it is very easy to criticise without putting forward constructive alternatives.

We don't do too badly re VFM but we should all still be vigilant and look for improvements that are cost effective.
The cheapest way is not always the best way.

 

[Punchy]

.....hands up if you have ever seen a poor self employed person??? .

Quite a few Wolfie. Especially when like me you have to wait to be paid (by cheque) for up to six months. Ive even had the situation where I've had to issue a county court summons to get the bastids to pay up. On paper it looks rosy, but I cant guarantee getting paid for my work, so constantly have to have the facility of a big overdraft, just in case. If things go tits up and some bastid doesnt pay or goes bust I could go down the pan at any time. Dont get me wrong I enjoy my work and the large amount of time it gives me in time off, I may not have the problems you have as an employed person, but I do have a completely different set of problems.

.....As the old saying goes "you will never get rich working for somebody else".

And you are unlikely to get rich working for yourself unless you start to employ other people to do the work. I'm a land surveyor/cartographer and have been doing the job for 40 years, I have a good name in the business and actually loath to sub contract or employ anyone to do my jobs and like the hands on side of the business. To make any money at it I would have to employ probably 8-10 staff, then of course I would no longer be doing what I enjoy and would have become a manager.

 

[Punchy]

......The cheapest way is not always the best way.

But that is exactly how virtually every government department hands out contracts... based on cost alone.

.

 

[derek kelly]

I pick up my pay slip every month I am taxed
I go to buy something for my tea I am taxed
I buy clothes to keep me warm I am taxed
I buy a car/bike I am taxed
I pay tax to keep the vehicle on the road
I pay tax so the vehicle can go
I book my holidays I am taxed
I treat my wife to a night out I am taxed
I have a nice house I am taxed
I phone the council to complain about the state of the footpath outside my house, they say they have insufficient funds to repair it.
I phone the council to ask why my bin has not been emptied for three weeks, I get the reply that it is too dangerous for the bin wagon due to ice on the road, so I ask them to grit the road, they say the funds don't stretch to covering that road as it's not on a bus route (despite there being three schools on the road)
They then vote for a 23% pay rise for themselves.
Value for money? not from my point of view.

 

[RHINO]

Why am 'I' as a single bloke taxed more than a married man or one who has kids???????????

Why do i pay more for insurance because i'm not married or have any dependants??????

Why as a bloke do i receive less pension than my female colleague when we retire????????? We've worked the same time, payed the same amount yet her pension gives more back AND statistically she's more likely to live longer.

I'll bet I pay more tax than a majority of folk on this site ? for ? because most of you are married with kids,,,,,,,,,so i'm paying more to be single c7u8

So the answer to the original question is NO!! but i'm unable to personally come up with a solution to this country wide problem so i'll not moan too much about the folk in charge as they are doing a better job than i could.

 

[Aidey]

VFM on tax?

No of course we dont.


I dont mind paying tax, up to a point. There are key government responsibilities that require (our modern) society to function. ie health, education, defence, transport etc.


However, real nappy advisors, five a day fruit and veg advisors, understanding cottaging advisors and the countless many more of them is not something I get up in the morning to willingly fund through my tax payment.

And to those that argue that these people pay tax to, well yes I agree that they do, but they pay it out of already taxed wages from the productive part of the economy. So do policemen and firemen and teachers LGO's etc. In effect the chancellor gets two income tax takes from one source of money.

This is probably what Jaws was getting at in his original question. Put it another way, is the financially unproductive part of the economy becoming too large a burden for the productive bit to support? The answer is not yet, but it's getting perilously close.