National speed limit or 70mph?

[T.C]

View attachment 58534

Read the sign

I did not say it could not happen, I stated that I had not seen any but I inferred it was rare, and in any case even here, based on the evidence, national speed limit of 60 would apply.

But also don't forget that under de-regulation, many councils put up incorrect signs. Some councils still refer to the "Slow" lane on a DC or MW....

 

[ogr1]

View attachment 58534

Read the sign

That's only for two bikes riding abreast.

 

[Duck n Dive]

I did not say it could not happen, I stated that I had not seen any but I inferred it was rare, and in any case even here, based on the evidence, national speed limit of 60 would apply.

But also don't forget that under de-regulation, many councils put up incorrect signs. Some councils still refer to the "Slow" lane on a DC or MW....

I'm curious, why would it be 60mph and not 70mph.

Its very clearly designated a dual carriageway, yes?

Unless there are signs otherwise or lamp posts indicating it's a built up area then the normal/national limit for the type of road applies?

The national limit does not "require" the standard national limit sign for it to be applicable.

What am I not getting?

 

[T.C]

I'm curious, why would it be 60mph and not 70mph.

Its very clearly designated a dual carriageway, yes?

Unless there are signs otherwise or lamp posts indicating it's a built up area then the normal/national limit for the type of road applies?

The national limit does not "require" the standard national limit sign for it to be applicable.

What am I not getting?

It would require a speed sign at the commencement of the dual carriageway to specify that a 70 limit applies.

Being a dual carriageway coming from a single carriageway then the continuation of the national limit of 60 still applies.

 

[Duck n Dive]

It would require a speed sign at the commencement of the dual carriageway to specify that a 70 limit applies.

Being a dual carriageway coming from a single carriageway then the continuation of the national limit of 60 still applies.

Wow!!!!!

Well that's truly something I did not know.

I've always believed that unless a sign says otherwise a dual carriageway is 70mph.

Oops...

 

[Duck n Dive]

A quick search finds the RAC saying what I believe as does Bedfordshire police.

 

[T.C]

Wow!!!!!

Well that's truly something I did not know.

I've always believed that unless a sign says otherwise a dual carriageway is 70mph.

Oops...

OK. Up to you what you believe and comply with.

Who am I to question the RAC or Beds Police who have been known to get facts about traffic regulations massively wrong in the past?

I can only tell you what I have been taught and I have taught over the years as a Traffic law instructor how the courts have interpreted the law.

(And this is not me trying to be sarcastic or anything)

 

[Cougar377]

The highway code isn't all law although breaking some parts of it can get you nicked

Arrrrrrrrrr.....................it's the code.

 

[slim63]

Duck n Dive T.C

The posts above go some way to answering my question thank you

My reasons for asking in the first place are two fold, a road near me is now a 50mph limit and also has a sign saying use single lane on dual carriageway but it used to be posted as a national speed limit and 2 lanes which was bloody dangerous
That road is barely wide enough for two lanes for much of its length so it still being classed (presumably) as a dual carriageway makes little sense although the lowered speed limit makes perfect sense as do the cross hatch markings across what used to be the second lane, I know the limit and stick to it but it seems others don't..... probably just the council buggering things up with poor signage but it bothers me

Secondly somewhere in south wales I was pulled over for doing 70mph on what I would consider a dual carriageway that was clearly posted as national speed limit (single lane in each direction with trees barriers etc between them)
No problem if I was speeding but I don't think I was considering the above and politely said so to the copper, at first he insisted it was a 60mph limit but when I pointed out the clear national limit signs and the type of road he admitted he wasn't sure either a radio call to a sarge, didn't make things any clearer and I was asked to proceed at 60mph or below which I did
I have no problem with any of that and would have been ok with a fine if proven to be in the wrong but it has bothered me for years as to who was right

 

[andyBeaker]

Hasn’t this all got a bit blurred - isn’t it as simple as two lanes in one direction in National Speed Limit is 70mph, one lane in either direction is 60mph, regardless of how they are separated?


Or am I confusing things further?


Personally I can’t remember ever being on a road with two or more lanes in both directions without a central reservation? There is one near me with one lane in one direction and two in the other……..no central reservation……

I am still trying to cope with National Speed a limit being 60 on country lanes where there isn’t even enough room for two cars to pass each other.

 

[Duck n Dive]

Yep, just confusing it more

A556 off junction 19 of M6 towards Chester, you can see it on Google.

2 lanes in each direction (i.e. 4 lanes but no central reservation) - that's the one that now has unbroken lines separating the central two lanes where it used to be all lanes segregated by broken lines.

Speed limit is and always has been 60mph limit - your simple rule is already broken.


I'm grateful for TC's clarification.

But (there's always a but ) it doesn't make sense that to correctly understand the applicable limit the public need to have the knowledge of a Traffic Instructor or how courts interpret the law.

 

[andyBeaker]

Yep, just confusing it more

A556 off junction 19 of M6 towards Chester, you can see it on Google.

2 lanes in each direction (i.e. 4 lanes but no central reservation) - that's the one that now has unbroken lines separating the central two lanes where it used to be all lanes segregated by broken lines.

Speed limit is and always has been 60mph limit - your simple rule is already broken.


I'm grateful for TC's clarification.

But (there's always a but ) it doesn't make sense that to correctly understand the applicable limit the public need to have the knowledge of a Traffic Instructor or how courts interpret the law.

That’s not what i said - I said when National Speed limit applies.

 

[T.C]

What you have to bear in mind is that de-regulation about 20 or so years ago (maybe longer) blurred everything for reasons which I will try and explain.

Until the late 90's, if the council wanted to replace or change a speed limit, they were required to consult the Police (most forces had a Traffic Management section which was a specialist unit within traffic) were obliged to carry out various investigations to either justify the change in limit or make their own recommendations.

This included looking at the accident stats for that particular road, the nature of the road, any particular issues such as schools, and they also did what is called an 85 percentile which meant that vehicle speeds were secretly recorded for 48 hours and the average was then taken but dismissing 15% as that was always regarded as being the minority who would speed regardless. The 85 percentile provided an average speed for that section of road, and from that a decision could be made as to whether a change in limit was justified. The other side of the coin was that the enforcement issue also had to be looked at.

The Police had the final say and the local authority were obliged to abide with their decision.

If the change was approved that the legislation was checked along with the signage before the law was enacted and then the physical changes would be checked,

9 times out of 10, the council got it wrong both in act and section and signage and enactment of the regulations and this still happens now.

Under de-regulation, the need to consult the Police was removed and they were allowed to change limits on a whim and they often did so just to justify their existence and in some cases they brought in a lower limit where there were no issues but the crash rate suddenly rocketed because it was unrealistic for that particular road. Providing they made the notifications in the correct way of the change under the appropriate act and section, they were given cart blanche to do as they please.

This is why there are so many anomalies around the country because local Highways are not accountable to anyone other than their CEO.

Motorway speed limits are National and like variable speed limits come under a completely different set of regulations, but this is why the National speed limit is 60mph except on Motorways and dual carriageways, but the 70 limit on a dual carriageway only usually applies if it is a major arterial dual otherwise 60 still applies on non arterial dual carriageways, however most enforcement bods will accept 70, providing it is suitable for the section of road.

 

[Duck n Dive]

"Hasn’t this all got a bit blurred - isn’t it as simple as two lanes in one direction in National Speed Limit is 70mph, one lane in either direction is 60mph, regardless of how they are separated?"

Two lanes in National limit no central reservation from lanes in other direction - its always going to 60mph - so no - not simples

 

[T.C]

But (there's always a but ) it doesn't make sense that to correctly understand the applicable limit the public need to have the knowledge of a Traffic Instructor or how courts interpret the law.

Because unlike something like the theft act which has not changed since its introduction in 1968, traffic law changes daily almost which is why a certain amount of leeway is allowed.

It doesn't help these days that your local traffic cop now does a 1 week traffic law course, a 3 week driving course and that is it. They struggle to understand the law because they are not professional traffic cops anymore, not their fault, its the fault of the forces who do not consider traffic policing to be important enough or serious front line policing despite the fact that they see more dead bodies and make more crime arrests in a year than the average superstar detective sees in his whole career.

Back in the day every trafficcop had to do a 12 week traffic law course at Maidstone or Chelmsford (I was Essex) do 12 weeks of driver training (Standard, Intermediate and Advanced), Motorway course and be trained and qualified, Speed enforcement, (Truvello, Muniquip, VASCAR and, and, and) along with a whole host of other stuff just to become an effective member of the team and we all had specialist subjects (mine was motorcycles and construction and use regs)

It was reckoned it took about 5 years to become fully qualified. Most traffic cops last about 2 - 3 years tops these days.

It is very different now as I found out recently when I was pulled for undertaking on the M4 and the copper was really upset when I said I would elect to go to court and I would claim and win costs against Police. I would have hated to be the unfortunate first poor sod that got pulled by him after he sped off from me.

Very different now, and a big gap in the knowledge base.

Sorry for rabbiting on....

 

[sr71caspar]

Yep, just confusing it more

A556 off junction 19 of M6 towards Chester, you can see it on Google.

2 lanes in each direction (i.e. 4 lanes but no central reservation) - that's the one that now has unbroken lines separating the central two lanes where it used to be all lanes segregated by broken lines.

Speed limit is and always has been 60mph limit - your simple rule is already broken.


I'm grateful for TC's clarification.

But (there's always a but ) it doesn't make sense that to correctly understand the applicable limit the public need to have the knowledge of a Traffic Instructor or how courts interpret the law.

"National speed limit, unless otherwise indicated"

As in......... the 60mph signs indicate it is not national speed limit.


PS it has no central reservation so it can't be a dual carriageway.

 

[Squag1]

This beats Brexit any day for entertainment

 

[andyBeaker]

Because unlike something like the theft act which has not changed since its introduction in 1968, traffic law changes daily almost which is why a certain amount of leeway is allowed.

It doesn't help these days that your local traffic cop now does a 1 week traffic law course, a 3 week driving course and that is it. They struggle to understand the law because they are not professional traffic cops anymore, not their fault, its the fault of the forces who do not consider traffic policing to be important enough or serious front line policing despite the fact that they see more dead bodies and make more crime arrests in a year than the average superstar detective sees in his whole career.

Back in the day every trafficcop had to do a 12 week traffic law course at Maidstone or Chelmsford (I was Essex) do 12 weeks of driver training (Standard, Intermediate and Advanced), Motorway course and be trained and qualified, Speed enforcement, (Truvello, Muniquip, VASCAR and, and, and) along with a whole host of other stuff just to become an effective member of the team and we all had specialist subjects (mine was motorcycles and construction and use regs)

It was reckoned it took about 5 years to become fully qualified. Most traffic cops last about 2 - 3 years tops these days.

It is very different now as I found out recently when I was pulled for undertaking on the M4 and the copper was really upset when I said I would elect to go to court and I would claim and win costs against Police. I would have hated to be the unfortunate first poor sod that got pulled by him after he sped off from me.

Very different now, and a big gap in the knowledge base.

Sorry for rabbiting on....

“During the war…..”

 

[Duck n Dive]

"National speed limit, unless otherwise indicated"

As in......... the 60mph signs indicate it is not national speed limit.


PS it has no central reservation so it can't be a dual carriageway.

I've been saying over and over : it's not a dual carriageway, never has been until it reaches the Northwich bypass section.

For years and years it only had National limit signs until (I think) when they eventually painted the double white lines between the two centre lanes.

Either way it was/is the National Speed Limit which applies of 60 mph.
The fact the signs now say 60mph has not increased or decreased the limit that has always applied.

Now, somewhere on the Internet is someone getting something wrong, I must go and find out where.....

 

[andyBeaker]

Now, somewhere on the Internet is someone getting something wrong, I must go and find out where.....

it won’t be on the internet…everyone is an expert on everything on the internet.