• Welcome to the new B.I.R.D. Forum. Please be sure to read the "New Member / New Registered ? Please Read" thread in the Coffee Shop. This contains some important information. To become a full member ( £5.90 a year ) simply click on your user name near the top on the right I hope you enjoy the new site ................ Jaws ( John )

You'll Hate this Election

Minkey

Ok it was me
Club Sponsor
I will be voting just out of respect for the suffragettes who fought so hard to get us the vote. who I vote for I don't know yet as I don't trust any of them, but if "normal"people don't vote extremists will and we will find ourselves being ruled by people we don't want. The referendum was an example of voters apathy, I know people keep going on about how many people voted for Brexit but little it wasn't an landslide vote and people forget about the millions who voted remain. :couch:
 

Oldandbald

Been there, and had one
Club Sponsor
I'm afraid I'm with Beaker on this one. Who sees a spoiled ballot paper apart from some bored member of the local women's institute who is counting the votes? I can't see how it helps in any way.
 

Cougar377

Express elevator to hell
Staff member
Moderator
Club Sponsor
I will be voting just out of respect for the suffragettes who fought so hard to get us the vote. who I vote for I don't know yet as I don't trust any of them, but if "normal"people don't vote extremists will and we will find ourselves being ruled by people we don't want. The referendum was an example of voters apathy, I know people keep going on about how many people voted for Brexit but little it wasn't an landslide vote and people forget about the millions who voted remain. :couch:

It was nothing to do with voter apathy....otherwise you wouldn't have seen the numbers turn out to vote that we did see. It was to do with voter discontent with the apathy and arrogance of politicians, both British based and in those in the EU.
Saying it wasn't a landslide vote is just sour grapes and shows a lack of respect for the democratic process that we all try to believe in.
 

Cougar377

Express elevator to hell
Staff member
Moderator
Club Sponsor
I'm afraid I'm with Beaker on this one. Who sees a spoiled ballot paper apart from some bored member of the local women's institute who is counting the votes? I can't see how it helps in any way.

Someone collates that information and publishes it in the national press and news media where it gets country wide attention, which led to it being discussed in the House of Commons. You might as well say all forms of protest are pointless. Given the amount of grief and news coverage those Extinction Rebellion muppets are creating I'd say protest is still a viable option to make your point.
 

Minkey

Ok it was me
Club Sponsor
It was nothing to do with voter apathy....otherwise you wouldn't have seen the numbers turn out to vote that we did see. It was to do with voter discontent with the apathy and arrogance of politicians, both British based and in those in the EU.
Saying it wasn't a landslide vote is just sour grapes and shows a lack of respect for the democratic process that we all try to believe in.

No sour grapes at all I just think people forget those who voted remain all 16 million of them. I am all in favour of democracy which is why I will be voting
 

Cougar377

Express elevator to hell
Staff member
Moderator
Club Sponsor
No sour grapes at all I just think people forget those who voted remain all 16 million of them. I am all in favour of democracy which is why I will be voting

It's a "winner takes all" game, Minks....just ask the Scottish Nationalists. A win's a win. At least you'll be voting.... unlike some who'd rather sit on their arse shouting at the telly, instead of getting down to the polling booth. :eusa_whistle:
 

Centaur

Site Pedant
Club Sponsor
No sour grapes at all I just think people forget those who voted remain all 16 million of them. I am all in favour of democracy which is why I will be voting

History remembers the winners, Minkey. No-one remembers who came second. The problems came because the majority of politicians did not want to see the job opportunities for themselves disappear when we leave the EU. Families like the Kinnocks have made a fortune in the EU after being bumped out of Westminster. If it had remained a Common Market restricted to prosperous Western European countries it would have been successful. As it is, a magnet for begging bowl countries only the politicians benefit. The Euro will soon collapse and with it the EU. Germany is not willing to pay to prop up the likes of Greece, Italy and Spain, never mind Hungary et al and will revert to the Deutschmark and the whole lot will collapse. When Angela goes it will signal the end. IMHO.
 

Duck n Dive

Rebel without a clue ...
Club Sponsor
I'm beginning to think that perhaps modern society may have come to the conclusion that the system of voting/government is no longer fit for purpose.

How and what you change it to is a moot point.

The current system is democratic (to a point) and has been arrived through historical development.
I suppose that doesn't actually prove it's the best and it's certainly not the only possible one.

I know when the referendum result was known my first reaction was that it didn't actually resolve or prove anything, either way. The margin was just too small. But, the method meant a majority was just that and so it had been decided!
But, wasn't that referendum legally not binding as I recall, it was a consultation. The politicians then trying to outdo each each other "said" they'd treat it as binding (even if not legally such), then everyone actually believed them!!!!

Now we're surprised that once they realised the implications for themselves they've been trying ever since to change their/our minds. I think they genuinely can't understand the problem, why should they keep this promise out of the many they've never kept in the past - and why are we surprised!

As for voting or not voting I suspect large sections of the population are starting to think that voting has no impact - or is that just an excuse for not taking part in politics.
For many "politics" is about reading the papers, ranting about and then roughly every four years voting.

The reality is that actually engaging in our method of democracy also requires engaging in the political process locally when in between elections, without that we're effectively disenfranchising ourselves and just doing the easy bit - putting a pencil mark on a small piece of paper every few years.

We live in an age where many expect much but apparently don't want to make the required effort.

Extinction Rebellion may well be an example of that. If their support is so widespread how come the green party in the UK is so apparently marginalised.
But then rather than do "the hard work" it's so much easier to stamp a foot and scream and scream....

For most of us old farts we achieved whatever we have in our work lives by (I suspect )of many years slogging away and working hard to progress or build something up bit by bit. It didn't happen overnight and it's rarely through some amazing action. Hard work over time.

I think politics is the same.

For what it's worth my view on the referendum is that it was run on a one vote majority method so has been decided.

Do I think things have changed since then? Hell yes, our politicians have proven that have no ability to actually run the country.
Should we change our minds? I think it's worth considering, it's very easy to break things, much harder to make them.
Back to making that effort again if we want something to work!!

When studying history (not very well) I can recall the argument that the most effective and efficient system of government is a benevolent dictatorship!
 

Centaur

Site Pedant
Club Sponsor
I'm beginning to think that perhaps modern society may have come to the conclusion that the system of voting/government is no longer fit for purpose.

How and what you change it to is a moot point.

The current system is democratic (to a point) and has been arrived through historical development.
I suppose that doesn't actually prove it's the best and it's certainly not the only possible one.

I know when the referendum result was known my first reaction was that it didn't actually resolve or prove anything, either way. The margin was just too small. But, the method meant a majority was just that and so it had been decided!
But, wasn't that referendum legally not binding as I recall, it was a consultation. The politicians then trying to outdo each each other "said" they'd treat it as binding (even if not legally such), then everyone actually believed them!!!!

Now we're surprised that once they realised the implications for themselves they've been trying ever since to change their/our minds. I think they genuinely can't understand the problem, why should they keep this promise out of the many they've never kept in the past - and why are we surprised!

As for voting or not voting I suspect large sections of the population are starting to think that voting has no impact - or is that just an excuse for not taking part in politics.
For many "politics" is about reading the papers, ranting about and then roughly every four years voting.

The reality is that actually engaging in our method of democracy also requires engaging in the political process locally when in between elections, without that we're effectively disenfranchising ourselves and just doing the easy bit - putting a pencil mark on a small piece of paper every few years.

We live in an age where many expect much but apparently don't want to make the required effort.

Extinction Rebellion may well be an example of that. If their support is so widespread how come the green party in the UK is so apparently marginalised.
But then rather than do "the hard work" it's so much easier to stamp a foot and scream and scream....

For most of us old farts we achieved whatever we have in our work lives by (I suspect )of many years slogging away and working hard to progress or build something up bit by bit. It didn't happen overnight and it's rarely through some amazing action. Hard work over time.

I think politics is the same.

For what it's worth my view on the referendum is that it was run on a one vote majority method so has been decided.

Do I think things have changed since then? Hell yes, our politicians have proven that have no ability to actually run the country.
Should we change our minds? I think it's worth considering, it's very easy to break things, much harder to make them.
Back to making that effort again if we want something to work!!

When studying history (not very well) I can recall the argument that the most effective and efficient system of government is a benevolent dictatorship!
I'm beginning to think that perhaps modern society may have come to the conclusion that the system of voting/government is no longer fit for purpose.

How and what you change it to is a moot point.

The current system is democratic (to a point) and has been arrived through historical development.
I suppose that doesn't actually prove it's the best and it's certainly not the only possible one.

I know when the referendum result was known my first reaction was that it didn't actually resolve or prove anything, either way. The margin was just too small. But, the method meant a majority was just that and so it had been decided!
But, wasn't that referendum legally not binding as I recall, it was a consultation. The politicians then trying to outdo each each other "said" they'd treat it as binding (even if not legally such), then everyone actually believed them!!!!

Now we're surprised that once they realised the implications for themselves they've been trying ever since to change their/our minds. I think they genuinely can't understand the problem, why should they keep this promise out of the many they've never kept in the past - and why are we surprised!

As for voting or not voting I suspect large sections of the population are starting to think that voting has no impact - or is that just an excuse for not taking part in politics.
For many "politics" is about reading the papers, ranting about and then roughly every four years voting.

The reality is that actually engaging in our method of democracy also requires engaging in the political process locally when in between elections, without that we're effectively disenfranchising ourselves and just doing the easy bit - putting a pencil mark on a small piece of paper every few years.

We live in an age where many expect much but apparently don't want to make the required effort.

Extinction Rebellion may well be an example of that. If their support is so widespread how come the green party in the UK is so apparently marginalised.
But then rather than do "the hard work" it's so much easier to stamp a foot and scream and scream....

For most of us old farts we achieved whatever we have in our work lives by (I suspect )of many years slogging away and working hard to progress or build something up bit by bit. It didn't happen overnight and it's rarely through some amazing action. Hard work over time.

I think politics is the same.

For what it's worth my view on the referendum is that it was run on a one vote majority method so has been decided.

Do I think things have changed since then? Hell yes, our politicians have proven that have no ability to actually run the country.
Should we change our minds? I think it's worth considering, it's very easy to break things, much harder to make them.
Back to making that effort again if we want something to work!!

When studying history (not very well) I can recall the argument that the most effective and efficient system of government is a benevolent dictatorship!

I completely agree. So long as it is not Corbyn! :eek: The opposite of a beneficial dictator ship is proportional representation where the likes of Italy and Israel have perpetual elections followed by "committee government" which achieves nothing and the cycle begins again. First past the post is not perfect but usually results in a winner who can actually do something.
 

andyBeaker

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Club Sponsor
Judging by the continuous barrage of anti Corbin material and comment on here it would be very odd indeed if the posters of said material deliberately spoil their ballot paper....it would only open the door slightly wider for him that you despise to get into power.

I cannot see anything other than a hollow and meaningless Pyrrhic victory for a spoilt paper - it achieves nothing in a tangible sense.

In my humble opinion :p
 

Jaws

Corporal CockUp
Staff member
Moderator
Club Sponsor
I'm afraid I'm with Beaker on this one. Who sees a spoiled ballot paper apart from some bored member of the local women's institute who is counting the votes? I can't see how it helps in any way.
You are joking !
As much care is taken in collating the spoiled tickets as the good ones.
They are counted, and results published in several places including Hansards
 

Cougar377

Express elevator to hell
Staff member
Moderator
Club Sponsor
I cannot see anything other than a hollow and meaningless Pyrrhic victory for a spoilt paper - it achieves nothing in a tangible sense.

In my humble opinion :p

It depends on the subject matter, AB. I'm "happy" to spoil a local or EU election vote to make a point, but a General election deserves a proper vote....even if it just keeps Comrade Corbyn et al out of No. 10.

My biggest fear now is that the polarisation effect that Brexit has had on the public consciousness will influence who they vote for much more than any other issue.....and in doing so, put Corbyn or Swinson in government.
 

ianrobbo1

good looking AND modest
I've said it before and I'll say it again, no vote = no opinion, and that goes for spoilt papers as well, as any party can claim that the "spoilt" votes would have gone to them, nowhere in the vote count does it say how the votes were spoilt, just that they were, if your not happy with the main contenders at least make the buggers aware your not happy with them by voting for an independent or even the monster raving looney party as long as you vote "they" cant declare your spoilt vote as "it was probably meant for me" or whatever they call spoiled votes.
 

derek kelly

The Deli lama
Club Sponsor
If one person in each area goes into the polling booth with an axe & destroys the booths where you tick the ballot slips then nobody will be able to vote or make sure you are last to vote & .set fire to your voting slip as you drop it in the box
 

Pow-Lo

Make civil the mind, make savage the body.
Club Sponsor
If one person in each area goes into the polling booth with an axe & destroys the booths where you tick the ballot slips then nobody will be able to vote or make sure you are last to vote & .set fire to your voting slip as you drop it in the box
Soak your ballot paper in petrol first, before setting it alight and dropping it in the box. Just to be sure, like..........
 

Squag1

Can't remember....
Club Sponsor
My biggest fear now is that the polarisation effect that Brexit has had on the public consciousness will influence who they vote for much more than any other issue.....and in doing so, put Corbyn or Swinson in government.
If you had Lib Dems and Labour together it might be the lesser of 2 evils.
A bit the same here, I wouldn't give any party a clear run.
 
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