Yet another F1 light problem!

[igsz]

Hi all,

I recently bought a high miler 2003 bird which was running great but now is off the road with an electrical problem. I have been working my way through things to check on the forum but think I may have missed something, any suggestions gratefully received! s0s:

The problem started one morning out of the blue?

• Bike started up fine then cut out after 2 seconds, F1 light came on.
• Flicked kill switch and fuel pump did not prime, F1 light stayed on. Bike turned over but wont start.
• Switched off ignition and kill switch, switched back on, fuel pump primed, F1 light went out and it started, cut out again after 2 seconds, F1 light came on.
• Switched off ignition and kill switch, switched back on fuel pump primed, F1 light went out and it started and ran for 5 minutes normally.
• Switched off ignition and kill switch, switched back on fuel pump primed, F1 light went out and it started, cut out again after 2 seconds and this continued every time I tried it?.

Things I have checked...

• Wiring loom mod has been done and double checked (all earth cables connected).
• Swapped relays and they are working ok
• Tilt switch seems to work (can this cause the F1 light to stay on?)
• Side stand switch is working ok
• Ignition switch wiring looks ok (not completely stripped it down as yet)

I am hoping it is a wiring short or switch problem somewhere and not the ECU :bow:.

Any ideas on where to look or what to check or double check gratefully received as I am due to ride it to Aragon soon for the motogp!!!

 

[ianrobbo1]

Check the ECU, and make sure it's secured as these have been known to thow the odd wobbly!! :dunno: earth wire checks done??

 

[igsz]

Thanks ianrobbo1, the ECU looks ok, no corrosion and rubber band is doing its job. Any suggestions on where to look for earth problems?

 

[Dark Angel]

I can't guarantee that this is accurate, but there might be something useful here...

Fuel Injection ( EFI ) Fault Diagnosis and Checking


If the fuel injection system ( FI ) warning light on the instrument cluster illuminates when the motorcycle is running, a fault has occurred in the fuel injection/ignition system. The engine control module ( ECM ) will store the relevant fault code in its memory and this code can be read as follows using the self-diagnostic mode of the ECM. While the engine is running and the motorcycle is being used, the FI light will come on and stay on. When the motorcycle is on its side stand and the is running below 5000 revs the FI light will flash, the pattern of the flashes indicating the code for the fault the ECM has identified.

If the engine can be started, place the motorcycle on its side stand and then start the engine and allow it to idle. Whilst the engine is idling, observe the FI warning light on the instrument cluster.

If the engine cannot be started, or to check for any stored fault codes even though the FI light is not illuminated, remove the seat to gain access to the fuel injectionsystem service check wiring connector, which is a white 3-pin ( 2 wire ) single sided connector inside the rubber boot close to the tail light.
Ensure the ignition is switched OFF then bridge the outer terminals of the service check connector with an auxiliary piece of wire.
With the terminals connected make sure the kill switch is in the run position then turn the ignition ON and observe the FI warning light.
If there are no stored codes the FI light will come on and stay on.
If there are stored fault codes, the FI light will flash.

The fuel injection system warning light uses long ( 1.3 second ) and short ( .5 second ) flashes to give out the fault code. A long flash is used to indicate the first digit of a double digit fault code ( i.e. 10 or above ). If a single digit fault code is being displayed ( i.e. 1 to 9 ) there will be a number of short flashes equivalent to the code being displayed.
For example, two long flashes followed by five short flashes indicate the fault code number twenty five. If there is more than one fault code, there will be a gap before the other codes are revealed ( the codes will be revealed in order , starting with the lowest and ending with the highest ). Once all the code(s) have been revealed, the ECM will continuously run through the code(s) stored in its memory, revealing each one in turn with a short gap between them.

Once the fault has been identified and corrected, it will be necessary to reset the system by removing the fault code from the ECM memory. To do this, ensure the ignition is switched OFF then bridge the terminals of the service check connector as before.
Turn the ignition ON then disconnect the bridge wire from the service check connector.
When the wire is removed the FI light should come on for approximately five seconds, during which time the bridging wire must be reconnected.
The warning light should start to flash when the bridging wire is reconnected, indicating that all the fault codes have been erased. However, if the light flashes twenty times then the memory has not been erased and the procedure should be repeated.
Turn off the ignition then remove the bridging wire.
Check the operation of the warning light ( in some cases it may be necessary to repeat the erasing procedure more than once ) then replace the seat.


FAULT CODE



SYMPTOM



POSSIBLE CAUSE

1
Engine runs normally
Faulty MAP sensor or wiring
2
Engine runs normally
Faulty MAP sensor / vacuum hose
7
Engine difficult to start at low temp.
Faulty coolant temp. sensor or wiring
8
Poor throttle response
Faulty throttle position sensor or wiring
9
Engine runs normally
Faulty intake air temp. sensor or wiring
10 ( see note 1)
Engine runs poor at high altitude
Faulty atmospheric pressure sensor
11
engine operates normally
Faulty speed sensor or wiring
12
Engine does not start
Faulty no. 1 fuel injector
13
Engine does not start
Faulty no. 2 fuel injector
14
Engine does not start
Faulty no. 3 fuel injector
15
Engine does not start
Faulty no. 4 fuel injector
18
Engine does not start
Faulty cam pulse gen.r or wiring
19
Engine does not start
Faulty ignition pulse gen. or wiring
20
engine operates normally
Faulty EPROM in ECM
25
engine operates normally
Faulty knock sensor or wiring



The following codes are only applicable to models with catalytic converter.

21
engine operates normally
faulty oxygen sensor
23
engine operates normally
Faulty oxygen sensor heat element


Note 1.
code 10 is only on the 1999 to 2000 X and Y models

 

[igsz]

Thanks Dark Angel. I did try to see if a code was logged, after bridging what I think are the correct cables the F1 light did not flash, will try again tomorrow...

 

[Centaur]

Just clarify sommat for me. Iggy.

You say you switch off and on both ignition and kill switch and get the 2 second run. What happens if you just switch ignition off and on or just switch the kill switch off and on? I am trying to isolate one from the other or do both have to be switched on and off to get the 2 second run. It sounds to me like a fuel pump problem but whether it is the fuel pump itself or that the ECU is only giving an initial prime and not maintaining the power to keep the fuel pump running I can't tell. Easiest answer is to temporarily swap ECUs with someone. I would assume the ECU provides a voltage to power a relay which in turn powers the fuel pump but without a diagram I am only guessing. If there is a fuel pump relay that would be my first suspect.

 

[Centaur]

EFI wiring diagram needed.

Anyone can email me a copy please. I've got the carb diagram but not the EFI.

 

[Saffie]

PM me your email

 

[Saffie]

Not much to check on that circuit to be honest.

You eliminated the relay by swapping it over.
Fuel pump power is provided by a signal being pushed from ecm to relay and onto pump.

We can force the fuel pump on bu bridging the Brown and Black/white wires to ensure the relay isnt getting a kill command from somewhere and check the fuel pump.
Or hold the relay in your hand and feel if it switches off after the initial prime and not on again.

As a sanity check will pull the plugs on the ecm and make sure the pins are clean and not corroded.

 

[igsz]

Hi Centaur, Saffie

Flicking the kill switch after it has cut out does not do the reset thing (prime pump, turn off hss and f1 light), instead the F1 lights flickers and stays on and hiss light comes on for a second (which is weird) and then goes out, the bike then spins but won’t start (but will spin).

It as though everything mechanical is fine and dandy but the hiss is suddenly kicking in or the ECU decides the bike is not fit to run.

This video demonstrates what the bike is doing when it won’t start
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UujkXnUsJQ

Re suspect fuel pump - do you think it would it start to splutter before cutting out or consistently cutout at the exact same time?

Re Relay - holding the fuel pump relay it switches off after the initial prime but not again so it does not appear to being turned off by the ECU.

Re ECU - I will give the terminals an proper inspection, check again for logged codes and report back.

Nb I have tried the spare keys but no change

Many thanks for your help!

 

[Saffie]

1.hiss light comes on for a second
2.suspect fuel pump - do you think it would it start to splutter before cutting out or consistently cutout at the exact same time?
3.Relay - holding the fuel pump relay it switches off after the initial prime but not again so it does not appear to being turned off by the ECU.

1. The HISS should do a quick check when the power is cut, do not have a digi dash so someone can confirm, but sounds normal to me. Light on checking everything ok light off.

2. If you at revs there might be enough fuel to make the system splutter at idling it would just cut out.

3. Relay should click on again so sounds like its not being turned on again by the ecu.

Will do some more research into this and get back with findings.

 

[Saffie]

Thanks Dark Angel. I did try to see if a code was logged, after bridging what I think are the correct cables the F1 light did not flash, will try again tomorrow...

The plug is a 3 pin plug with only 2 wires going into it, brown wire and green wire.

http://www.cbrxx.com/honda-cbr-xx-resource-center/10115-checking-for-fi-faults.html

 

[Centaur]

Here ya go, Saffie.

PM me your email

email is William.smyth10(at) btinternet.com Where did you learn your electrics, Saffie? :-0)

 

[Saffie]

I studied Electrical after finishing academic school, then when we split off to domestic, light voltage and high voltage, I stupidly went light voltage and eventually qualified as electronics technician specializing in Audio Visual.

 

[Centaur]

Thanks for the info, Iggy.

I'm with Saffie in that the bike will stop without a splutter if pump stops. Been there and done that. Bypassing the relay would be an easy way to prove if the relay is not getting a holding voltage from the ECU. It is hard to figure out why the ECU would give an initial prime but fail to follow up when the bike is running. Jaws might have experience of this but sadly he is currently on holiday. AGAIN! One would think he had retired! :-0)

 

[Saffie]

Its a huge manual found the link for download here.(142mb)


http://vk.com/doc-27103416_189043262?dl=d11a4e8d192461566b

 

[igsz]

Hi, thanks for the suggestions, quick update!

- No ECU fault codes have logged

- ECU terminal connections are like new so nothing obvious there.

- The bike ran ok again today after a few attempts but then went back to cutting out again after turning off.

So the next thing I will try is testing/bridging the fuel pump, the earth connection under the tank look a bit suspect..

 

[Centaur]

ECU and Relay bypass.

Hi, Iggy. Put12v positive on the brown lead at the fuel cut off relay and if Saffie and I are correct your bike should run. Pull the relay and put 12v in from the top if that is easiest.

 

[igsz]

Hi Centaur, annoyingly the fuel pump and control all tested ok, when bridged it still cuts out/F1 light comes on.

One further thing I noticed is if you leave the bike at the point you would hit the starter (i.e when its ready to start with the F1 light out) the relay clicks and the F1 light comes on after a few seconds (i.e without being started).

Seems something is triggering the ECU, running or not running, to cut the engine…but it does not log it as a fault.

 

[CBRDEAN0]

Try bypassing the tilt sensor to see if it has gone faulty and thinks the bike is on its side.