Track Day advice.

[frenchuk]

OK... having opinions about what colour is best for the bird is fine. You don't need to know anything, it's just a matter of taste - bad taste if it's anything else than black. There, an opinion where I need to no nothing else than have a fantastic taste.
Now, you can't have opinions about things you know sweet fuck all about. I am enclined to trust people who do it day in day out, like Sarah, who spends her days on the track, is surrounded by spanners and all sort of people who live on the track. I didn't feel that sarah had a know-it-all attitude. On that occasion she was trying to correct what know-it-all's stated.
try and use your brains for a second - talking about real world as opposed to track is utter bollocks. Fact is, even if you're more like fat Bert than Rossi, you still work your tyres harder when you twist your bike all the time than... when you don't.
Now, the goal is to have a, say, 45PSI when tyre is hot (cold, 42, hot 45, or something, OK?) When not working your tyres much (like on easy riding road) they won't get very hot, therefore PSI will only change by 3 units, hence 42 when cold.
On the track, when you work your tyres harder, they're gotta get warmer. So, to reach a 45PSI when hot, you're gotta need less PSI when cold, as the gap between cold and hot will be more important. That is very basic physics. If you don't understand that, well... Oh fuck it

 

[R2B2]

I think we all understand the concept of heat and expansion Pierre...... that is obvious enough to most.

What I really want to know is the ideal target pressure for running when the tyre is up to temperature. That way I can work it out for myself with a gauge when I'm there by checking after the first run as a benchmark.

This also then takes into account conditions on the day.

 

[Fat Bert]

Livened it up a bit eh?? LOL

OK - so far three member on here who I know and trust [with respect to things Bird-like] state :-

a] 2psi out then run and check


b] 2 psi out then run and check


c] leave it as it is


Now with all due respect to Ben, his original post was to let 10-12 psi out

Even a dullard fuckwit like me can tell that there is a hell of a lot of difference in 2psi and 10/12 psi and in my book THAT statement makes it a dangerous comment

[Yes yes I know the difference is 8psi!!]

Which reverts back to MY original post which states 42/42

Basic maths decrees that is a lot closer than -10/12 which I still believe on a standard road-going BIRD with standard Bird-specific road-going tyres are dangerous pressures

 

[Samster]

Go out and put 46psi in both your front and rear tyres tomorrow and go and try to hold a line in a bend.......a damn bit harder than usual? You bet it is! Thats' cos unless your 300lb your contact patches will be about the size of my bell end!

Paddy (who's thread this is) is riding Brands, he's 105kg and if it's dry his pressures WILL increase significantly - after 6 or 7 laps they'll be beyond 45psi easily and closing in on bell end contact patch territory.

So, I maintain it is better for him to start at 38ish go out and to take pressures when back in the pit. If the rear is at 43 after a session then that's no good, he'll need to set the pressures to 37 from cold in order than they don't go beyond the manufacturers recommended 42.

I look forward to hearing your reports of what it's like riding with 46 pounds in your tyres (just like Rossi eh!)

 

[gypsy]

so what is the optimum pressure for the Bird tyres when they are hot then ?
Just a thought but if there running too hot/cold it would give you a mark to work from

 

[PsychoBikerBen]

Now with all due respect to Ben, his original post was to let 10-12 psi out

Even a dullard fuckwit like me can tell that there is a hell of a lot of difference in 2psi and 10/12 psi and in my book THAT statement makes it a dangerous comment

[Yes yes I know the difference is 8psi!!]

Which reverts back to MY original post which states 42/42

Basic maths decrees that is a lot closer than -10/12 which I still believe on a standard road-going BIRD with standard Bird-specific road-going tyres are dangerous pressures

Having run 31/30 at brands on a day that is warm & dry and the sun shining I found I had no problems what so ever.
If I turn up at Brands this time and it's a colder day I could start trying my start pressures at say..38/37 ish
But my point is - come in and check the pressures after a good session and see where I'm at.
Start with lower pressures than the standard road recommended ones and NOT flatly reply by saying that 42/42 is the way to go.

Just for you bert - here's a picture of a totally out of control rider running dangerously low pressure having problems staying on the track and causing complete death and injury to all around. As you can see, Kittens are dying everywhere and the marshals are running across the track waving black flags and fighter pilots have been instructed to blow the riders ass clean off the track for the safety of others.
It's all totally irresponsible !
And running Avon Azaros!

 

[Allan]

Mmmmmm......... this is still back and forthing a bit!

As I recall, there has been (at least) one major "off" at an earlier RSID. Does anybody know what he did with his tyre pressures??

He had Macadams on, not even a Bird Tyre and certainly not designed for circuit use. !!!!

Buzz

 

[Paddy Dougan]

many thanks to all for the comments and advice,
i was aware of the reduction in tyre pressures needed, and as pointed out by some, doing it in steps.
Now i don't mean to step on anyones pinkies but I will be taking advice from the peeps who are running the event (Sarah & Co),
and from others that are on a similiar bike etc.
Assuming I have got the correct tyre pressures (what ever they are!), some advice on riding styles position etc would be helpful.
I would love to have a blaster of a day but whats more important is that I enjoy myself even if I'm not quick or a racing God, I've never proclaimed to be, so no let down there then.
As always I'll go at me own pace, slow & shite and as always at the back,
but welcome any tips.
Again many thanks for the advice, did'nt realise I was stirring up a hornets nest on the tyre press thing!

cheers Paddy.............. :beer:

 

[Allan]

Rob.
Psst, come over here mate into my corner for a mo and listen to me...

I/we have organised quite a number of RSID now and we employ the services of instructors from all walks of life, Pro and semi Pro Racers, Califronia Race School instructors, police instructors (not just police riders but police instructors -and all of these boys & girls are fookin quick) etc etc etc...

We have even run a course for these instructors we use on 'cornering' - no matter what their back ground is, or how good they say they are - so that everyone has the same input and to ensure they all agree on the same princilpes, (the debate was quiet lively :rant: :cry: :k )

After riding the circuit on various bikes, in various conditions the outcome was - None advocate dropping tyre pressures for the riding you will be doing on the day.

Its NOT a track day, its a RSID - yes you will go quick, yes you will push it in the bends, yes you will get some good lean angles and even get your knee down if you want, but its NOT a track day - so do the same as me and the other guys who ride this circuit and instruct on it, leave your tyre pressures alone. For this circuit WE know what we are talking about.

I bow to the far superior knowledge of others have have posted on this thread who have obviosuly had a full life in racing, testing & instructing, but I will not be led by those who havent.

Until these 'track Gods' hold a full ACU race licence and have competed in races and have actually achieved something, I suggest they be very careful with their 'non-professional' advice. They could find themselves involved in a compensation claim for supplying bad advice when a rider has an off following thier ill informed advice.

Find me the information that is supplied to you when you have a pair of Avon Vipers (or any other tyre and manufacturer) fitted where it says;
For normal road use the pressures should be xxpsi, but when you use them on track days set them to xxpsi and I'll shut the fxxk up.

Tyre pressures for different loadings might be shown, ie normal riding or touring with extra baggage and pillion, but I'm fairly confident a tyre company will not commit themselves to pressure settings for track use with road tyres.

Remember that the tyre pressure setting for your bike (42) are set when COLD.
Road use will increase that pressure when they have warmed up, so every day NORMAL pressures are designed to be above the COLD (42) setting, so why would you want to lower your road pressure to something below manufactures setting to arrive back at 42 when they are up to normal operating temp. Common sense tells you they should be higher than that - or have I missed something here?.

Buzz

 

[D.S.]

You'll be just fine Paddy; might even be tempted to join ya now :}

 

[PsychoBikerBen]

I bow to the far superior knowledge of others have have posted on this thread who have obviosuly had a full life in racing, testing & instructing, but I will not be led by those who havent.

Until these 'track Gods' hold a full ACU race licence and have competed in races and have actually achieved something, I suggest they be very careful with their 'non-professional' advice. They could find themselves involved in a compensation claim for supplying bad advice when a rider has an off following thier ill informed advice.

Buzz

Sarah J - Races ,ACU licence holder, Worked as instructor for Focused events.
Steve Weeks - Races,ACU licence
Dirty Sanchez - used to have an ACU licence & rumour has it-may start racing again.
Oh...sorry, forgot. These guys are used to track day experience and riding on track and not fluent in your rider instruction days.
Their experiences and knowledge must count for shit then when talking about 'On track'.

I'm not telling you it's MY advise but I used advice from people who "obviosuly had a full life in racing, testing & instructing"

 

[Fat Bert]

Concerned of BIRD

OK - accept what peeps are saying - better technie knowledge than me :bow: :bow:

BUT

For the sake of the guests, newbies, non-posters and inexperienced riders I think it fair and reasonable to mention a word of caution because people reading this thread could quiet easily interpret that to gain better grip you lower the tyre pressures -period

SO FOR NORMAL ROAD USE...................

The tyre pressures for the Bird recommended by HONDA are 42psi [front] and 42 psi [back] readings taken from cold tyres

The tyres that you use should be Blackbird specific - email JAWS or 1200Pete is you need advice clarification

If, in the event of a road traffic accident, it were to be proven that you were running "incorrectly specified tyres" OR if it were to be proven that your tyres were significantly under-inflated you COULD invalidate your insurance and leave yourself open to a negligence claim

I have just checked this with my insurance company who confirm this to be correct

 

[PsychoBikerBen]

OK - accept what peeps are saying - better technie knowledge than me :bow: :bow:

BUT

For the sake of the guests, newbies, non-posters and inexperienced riders I think it fair and reasonable to mention a word of caution because people reading this thread could quiet easily interpret that to gain better grip you lower the tyre pressures -period

SO FOR NORMAL ROAD USE...................

The tyre pressures for the Bird recommended by HONDA are 42psi [front] and 42 psi [back] readings taken from cold tyres

The tyres that you use should be Blackbird specific - email JAWS or 1200Pete is you need advice clarification

If, in the event of a road traffic accident, it were to be proven that you were running "incorrectly specified tyres" OR if it were to be proven that your tyres were significantly under-inflated you COULD invalidate your insurance and leave yourself open to a negligence claim

I have just checked this with my insurance company who confirm this to be correct

And paddy's post was about a TRACK DAY at Brands and not a day out on the road.
Also - anyone who buys any bike and doesn't know,find out, read the owners manual to find out the recomended/manufacturers standard ROAD pressures needs a smack.
So thank you for those pearls bert because no one here would have ever learnt about the sacred 42/42.
And thanks for showing us that Paddy's thread is about a track day because no one hear can read Irish/Dutch and probably thought mi mate was on about a day of windsurfing.

 

[Fat Bert]

Ben

It's the Coffee Shop so open to general discussion - although agree the thread has been inadvertantly hijacked

No worries - point taken :beer:

 

[Honeymonster]

There seems to be an awful lot of fragile ego's on this site so much squabbling about the advice given. IMHO I always thought that you took advice from people who have experience about what you wish to do (in this case, a trackday) whether you choose to act on that advice is then up to you.

 

[Duck n Dive]

Firstly, I have no basis on which to offer any advice on this subject!

Just happened to be reading an old copy of Bike this morning (Oct 2004) where they were checking out varous tyres. They were testing on a track and from the way the article reads I would interpret that they were "pushing it" as they were trying to determine tyre limits.

On a Fazer thou on BT20's they made the following comments:

"....really grippy initially but as the laps progressed the rear was walking.......normally this is a sign of overheating. Data on the tyres recommended operating temperature was not available, but it peaked a couple of degrees higher than the sportecs"

".........can cope with track use but loses performance after five or six laps, as the tyre gets too hot."


From what I read in the article and previous comments it strike me that the questions are:

1. Is there a diffrence between achieved tire temp on track day vs rider skills.

2. What is the recommened operating temperature for a particular tyre (presumable only the manufacturer can give that).

3. How do you achieve and maintain the recommened temperature.

I would also believe that different tyres and different manufacturers are likely to behave differently. What works for one might not work for the other.

Soooooooo how do we answer the questions?

1. Preferably from actual measurements of tyre temp. (for that make/type of tyre) taken at these events. Failing that next best has to be advice from those who have experience of both or one or the other.

2. Only the tyre manufacturer can give that infomation.

3. Surely by measuring both pressure and temperature at intervals.


I'm guessing here but surely those racing (in particular) know what the recommended operating temp range is for the tyre they run.
They will also build up knowledge of how their particular bike/rider behaves in differing conditions.
I'd assume that they use a mix of track/ambient temp + tyre temp + pressures to arrive at optimums for handling.
Again I'd guess that a data table would be the easiest way to determine this.
i.e. read off track temp/no laps(track time expected) and arrive at a suitable pressure to optimise for handling/temp.


So my inexpert conclusion would have to be:
1. Can/will the manufacturer tell you the optimum temp. for your particular tyre. If they won't then you can't take a "measured" approach. If they do then you measurer tyre temp and adust pressures accordingly.
This wud seem to match the advice of checking pressure after a few laps.

2. If you can't get the required temp info then listen to those who've done it before but make your own choice.


All the discussion that's gone on seems to clearly make the link between temp and pressure (as more or less causing the temp) but concentrate on pressure.
I'd say that the focus really ought to be the other way around with temp being the key and pressur ebeing the way to achieve it.

Suppose I'll now get blasted but anyway..........

:yo:

 

[Allan]

If, in the event of a road traffic accident, it were to be proven that you were running "incorrectly specified tyres" OR if it were to be proven that your tyres were significantly under-inflated you COULD invalidate your insurance and leave yourself open to a negligence claim

I have just checked this with my insurance company who confirm this to be correct

Never mind your insurance,,,,,,,
Road Traffic Act 1988 - Construction and Use -
CU 30 - Using a vehicle with a defective tyre(s) - 3 penalty points

This is used when tyres are examined and found to be over or under inflated. Its an offence to drive/ride a vehicle with tyres above or below the correct pressure.
Of course this applies to a road, not a track, but if you leave a track and venture back onto the road with tyres at the wrong pressure - accept the points gracefully.

The officer would of course have to wait with the vehilce until the tyres were cold befor taking the reading.

Buzz

 

[Allan]

Sarah J - Races ,ACU licence holder, Worked as instructor for Focused events.
Steve Weeks - Races,ACU licence
Dirty Sanchez - used to have an ACU licence & rumour has it-may start racing again.
Oh...sorry, forgot. These guys are used to track day experience and riding on track and not fluent in your rider instruction days.
Their experiences and knowledge must count for shit then when talking about 'On track'.

I'm not telling you it's MY advise but I used advice from people who "obviosuly had a full life in racing, testing & instructing"

I beg to differ here Ben but did 'tell'

Er NO!
On the track (and I mean a proper one) riding a Blackbird You should be running 31psi at the front and 30psi at the rear.

This is quite clearly a tell and not a 'in my experince' so where's you ACU licence, your proffesional qualification and your 3rd party insurance liability?

Admittingly, I only have the later two, but even I would'nt spout off telling folks what tyre pressure to use for fear of being sued when it goes tits up.

You might want to 'think' before posting.

Buzz

 

[Jaws]

Of course this applies to a road, not a track, but if you leave a track and venture back onto the road with tyres at the wrong pressure - accept the points gracefully.


Buzz

Actually Allan, this is no longer true thanks to those who ran raves years ago.. New legislation was brought in to stamp down on such terrible goings on !

Sad to say the laws have far reaching affects.

From this point on I am in waffle mode and have no idea of how true or untrue the following diatribe is !

You may be able to verify that the same laws apply to private land as public nowadays, which is why you actually have to wear a bash hat no matter where you are.. ( classic example is the BMF rally's ) and things like the ped racing are actually highly illigal.

The ONLY exceptions are for vehicles taking part in a race or pace making excercise..
Now, it has been argued ( successfully thank gawd ) that track days are pace making events and are therefore not covered by the same rules..
Now, with that in mind, where does RSID fall ?

For instance, if the letter of the law is followed, could everyone be nicked for speeding ? ( Wellll, everyone bar FB maybe :} ( sorry ! LOL ! )

If not, then what laws are governing private roads such as the M6 toll road ?

 

[Paddy Dougan]

You'll be just fine Paddy; might even be tempted to join ya now :}

That would be great.. I shan't even ask what tyre pressures you'll be running.............

Now, any chance of some advice other than tyre pressures, or is that all peeps seem to know or care about.... :}
tyre pressures to bed me thinks!
p.