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R2B2
Guest
Tbh Pierre, I don't know much about it at all.......... but I'd like to know more.frenchuk said:
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Welcome to the new B.I.R.D. Forum. Please be sure to read the "New Member / New Registered ? Please Read" thread in the Coffee Shop. This contains some important information. To become a full member ( £5.90 a year ) simply click on your user name near the top on the right I hope you enjoy the new site ................ Jaws ( John )
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frenchuk
Guest
Click on the links I've provided, fascinating stuff!
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Smoothandquick
Guest
not all true Rob
diesels are having a friggin nightmare right now trying to establish a robust way for cleaning up particulates - an issue that gasolines don't have. All manufacturers have major problems of oil dilution when they inject in the exhaust stroke during re-gen of DPF's.....
There are many routes of development left within gasoline engines mate - but as I said market demand is for diesels, and the revenue generated by this is funding diesel development....development is directly linked to market demand, that simple.....
I work directly on exhaust and after treatment systems and believe me that bike emissions standards are a flippin million miles behind where car standards are now - paritcularly within federal markets where you also have to meet evaporative emissions from fuel systems, hoses, even tyres !!!!! Bike fuelling control modules and the mapping contained within them is very very basic.
Gasoline aftertreatments have used NOx traps as well as 3 way converters but as gasoline sales are ever declining why invest in these technologies ??
diesels are having a friggin nightmare right now trying to establish a robust way for cleaning up particulates - an issue that gasolines don't have. All manufacturers have major problems of oil dilution when they inject in the exhaust stroke during re-gen of DPF's.....
There are many routes of development left within gasoline engines mate - but as I said market demand is for diesels, and the revenue generated by this is funding diesel development....development is directly linked to market demand, that simple.....
I work directly on exhaust and after treatment systems and believe me that bike emissions standards are a flippin million miles behind where car standards are now - paritcularly within federal markets where you also have to meet evaporative emissions from fuel systems, hoses, even tyres !!!!! Bike fuelling control modules and the mapping contained within them is very very basic.
Gasoline aftertreatments have used NOx traps as well as 3 way converters but as gasoline sales are ever declining why invest in these technologies ??
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R2B2
Guest
Think you've misunderstood it.
There may loads of development left in petrols - but it won't get exploited. There will be no point as the future legislation will force manuf's to reduce the size of petrols drastically to meet Carbon Dioxide requirements (because they'll have to reduce fuel consumption drastically) and they simply won't then have the power. The manuf's are looking ahead.... hence the attention to diesels, which will not suffer this same problem. The power will come from the torque which petrols don't and can't have because the petrol burns too quick.
Legislation is going to force smaller engines, and smaller diesels will be more powerful that smaller petrols, and that differential will increase further making petrols even less attractive to invest development in. That is what's driving the r & d into diesels. The demand for diesels is coming from the early stages of this development, namely more mpg! BMW 330d engine for example - now with more torque than one of the Ferrari supercars and ten times the fuel economy..... and that at the infancy of this development!
Incidently, Lotus are investing in diesel development too. They already have a 1200cc lightweight diesel engine producing stunning results and there is recognition of much more development that falls inside the scope of the future legislation, unlike the petrols. They must be confident.......
You're right about bike emissions though - haven't we already lost the CB500 and a few others because of it? The article I posted was directly about bikes, the whole gist of it being about diesels which will be small and lightweight - it was entitled Ducati TDi !!
There may loads of development left in petrols - but it won't get exploited. There will be no point as the future legislation will force manuf's to reduce the size of petrols drastically to meet Carbon Dioxide requirements (because they'll have to reduce fuel consumption drastically) and they simply won't then have the power. The manuf's are looking ahead.... hence the attention to diesels, which will not suffer this same problem. The power will come from the torque which petrols don't and can't have because the petrol burns too quick.
Legislation is going to force smaller engines, and smaller diesels will be more powerful that smaller petrols, and that differential will increase further making petrols even less attractive to invest development in. That is what's driving the r & d into diesels. The demand for diesels is coming from the early stages of this development, namely more mpg! BMW 330d engine for example - now with more torque than one of the Ferrari supercars and ten times the fuel economy..... and that at the infancy of this development!
Incidently, Lotus are investing in diesel development too. They already have a 1200cc lightweight diesel engine producing stunning results and there is recognition of much more development that falls inside the scope of the future legislation, unlike the petrols. They must be confident.......
You're right about bike emissions though - haven't we already lost the CB500 and a few others because of it? The article I posted was directly about bikes, the whole gist of it being about diesels which will be small and lightweight - it was entitled Ducati TDi !!
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Aidey
Guest
Dunno about all of the above but what I can tell you is that I currently have a 2.2 litre deisel Nissan Primera and the way that thing accelerates without having to change gear is quite remarkable. Deisels produce very high torque figures compared to equivalent cc petrol cars and work very efficiently on motorways. The immediate future probably is with deisel fuel as it produces more energy per cc than petrol. I think its something to do with the difference in burn rates of the fuels. ie If you set fire to a litre of petrol it would burn in a fraction of a second but a litre of deisel would take much longer therefore releasing its energy over a comparatively longer period of time.
Ignorance
I really don't know diddly squat about diesels but a few years ago the Chancellor was enthusing about diesels and reducing diesel fuel prices to push us all that way but when the info about particulates came out there was a sudden about face and diesel prices shot higher than petrol to push us back to petrol. Did I read this wrong or did t'Chancellor get it wrong with all the experts he has in his bed?
I really don't know diddly squat about diesels but a few years ago the Chancellor was enthusing about diesels and reducing diesel fuel prices to push us all that way but when the info about particulates came out there was a sudden about face and diesel prices shot higher than petrol to push us back to petrol. Did I read this wrong or did t'Chancellor get it wrong with all the experts he has in his bed?
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R2B2
Guest
It is isn't it.... I've been a passenger in one. Another that does that - I was stunned - is the Golf GTD turbo thing. The torque that that engine develops, even in a high gear is, as you say, remarkable.Aidey said:
It works like this, in simple terms......
Petrol burns with a fast, violent bang. It produces a very fast, but short lived, expansion of gases which initially blow the piston down rapidly, but the expansion expires when the piston is only partially on it's downward stroke. Great for high revving engines (and horse power) as the fuel burns so quickly. You will have noticed that horsepower figures are always quoted at the high end of the rev scale.
In contrast, diesel burns with a sustained whoosh and produces much more gas expansion, which expands over a longer period. This pushes the piston down......... and continues to push it down over more of it's stroke due to this ongoing gas expansion. The stroke on a diesel engine is longer to capitalise on this ongoing expansion. This is what gives a diesel it's higher torque (at lower revs), and is the reason why your diesel Primera accelerates so hard in a high gear. However, this combustion proccess takes time and that is why a diesel can't rev like a petrol......... the fuel burn is just too slow. I guess your Primera engine runs out of revs at about 4500 rpm (only a guess) whereas my 2.8 BMW petrol revs to nearly 7,000, but I think your Primera will easily out accelerate my car! (until we approach really fast speeds, where the petrol engine can regain the advantage).
Coupled with there being 16% more energy in diesel , it is this torque that the manuf's are paying attention to, and want to develop further. They believe that they can develop very small diesels, that will therefore be lightweight, which will meet the emissions regs of the future - the regs that will force engines to become smaller (in terms of cc). This is where the petrol engine will start to loose the battle (quite apart from the emissions issue).
With variable vane turbo technology to overcome the problem with turbo lag it's not difficult to see where they're going. To overcome the shorter rev range of the diesel they will develop 8, 9, 10? speed gearboxes with rapid methods of shifting like paddle control (it will prob be computer controlled) which will allow the driver to constantly keep the engine within the narrow power band whatever the speed.
You won't be able to do that with a petrol because the power is all at the upper end of the rev scale.
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mikew
Guest
Dunno what all the fuss is about......
... I've been running my Yamaha TRX on diesel on more than one occasion ..... oops........ :blush:
still got me where I wanted to go, and more importantly, back again.
(and kept ahead of Punchy aswell!)
... I've been running my Yamaha TRX on diesel on more than one occasion ..... oops........ :blush:
still got me where I wanted to go, and more importantly, back again.
(and kept ahead of Punchy aswell!)
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R2B2
Guest
I'm in the same club Mike. Fortunately for you they seem to leave you alone now, unlike myself, whom they remind at any opportunity. I'll be glad when the next one does it 
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mikew
Guest
R2B2 said:I'm in the same club Mike. Fortunately for you they seem to leave you alone now, unlike myself, whom they remind at any opportunity. I'll be glad when the next one does it
we could form a breakaway site!
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Smoothandquick
Guest
hmmmmm.....
Just a thought mate !!!!!
Engine running speeds are all linked to dynamic forces involved within the piston, con rod and crankshaft - the longer the stroke, the greater the main con rod bearing running centre needs to be, thus the forces grow massively, limiting the speed with which the engine will run. Also if it runs too fast you'll run into detonation issues and a whole host of other gubbins....
A major limiting factor on diesels is also the gearbox, drive train, clutches and massive torque steer.
Petrol development is being developed as much as diesels - just on larger capacity engines. I am workign on a 5.0L supercharged V8 developing 500 bhp, so if you think diesel rules, think again matey !!!!!
Interesting debate this Rob, like in depth discussions like this !!! :beer:
So the torque isn't related to the significantly higher compression ratio then Rob ??R2B2 said:
Just a thought mate !!!!!Engine running speeds are all linked to dynamic forces involved within the piston, con rod and crankshaft - the longer the stroke, the greater the main con rod bearing running centre needs to be, thus the forces grow massively, limiting the speed with which the engine will run. Also if it runs too fast you'll run into detonation issues and a whole host of other gubbins....
A major limiting factor on diesels is also the gearbox, drive train, clutches and massive torque steer.
Petrol development is being developed as much as diesels - just on larger capacity engines. I am workign on a 5.0L supercharged V8 developing 500 bhp, so if you think diesel rules, think again matey !!!!!
Interesting debate this Rob, like in depth discussions like this !!! :beer:
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R2B2
Guest
5.0 ltr Supercharged V8? Supercharged? Inducting even more of the very type of fuel that is already identified to fail future emission legislation?. That only makes the problem worse than it already is, so what use will it be in the future?
The above is, I think, precisely the point that the article is making, namely that engines will HAVE to get smaller and not larger.
I hear what you're saying about big petrols making more horses, I absolutely agree with you 110%, but that is not the issue of the future. The issue simply is........ legislation will force engines to become smaller!, and that's when the diesel technology will gain the advantage, because the usable power found in the torque producing, low revving, fuel miserly diesel will satisfy the future emission legislation. Petrols will have to become smaller too..... but they just wont compete in the power stakes given the miserly fuel intake they will be forced to adopt. They simply can't produce the same torque because of the way the fuel is burnt, and they won't be able to access the power producing part of their rev range (high revs) because they'll then be using too much fuel - back to square one!
Make big capacity petrol engines that can produce the necessary power at lower revs? Won't work - they'll still use too much fuel and produce more of those nasty gases the legislation will not permit.
The mega powerful 5.0 ltr supercharged V8 petrol engine will be a dinosaur - no use to anybody (maybe motorsport?). Future success lies in small.
Diesel DOES have more energy than petrol, so it seems logical that diesels will gain the advantage when the point arrives whereby engines will be forced to use less fuel.
I agree the higher compression ratio must play a part in torque, but a component of this advantage must be balanced to some degree by the loading factor of compressing that air into the smaller combustion area when the piston is on the compression stroke (memories of trying to hand crank single cylinder diesel dumper engines without using the valve lifter!!). Isn't the higher compression ratio needed not only to ignite the diesel, but also to continue the slow burn when the piston has passed tdc, therefore creating the largest component of the torque - the greater expansion of combustion gasses? The more produces more principle!
What's your take on serious manuf's like, like Toyota, Honda, BMW, Lotus etc, conducting intense r & d into SMALL diesel engines....... and being majorly clandestine about it to boot? I see that as them wanting to hit the ground running when the time comes. They certainly aint doing it for fun! What we don't know is how far away this future legislation is, but judging by all this r & d, maybe not too far!!
I'd dump that big V8 if I were you mate, and get yer head into little diesels!! :} Leave those petrol boys floundering on the beach when the tide goes out. I'll work with you on that one and we'll get rich together :lick:
The above is, I think, precisely the point that the article is making, namely that engines will HAVE to get smaller and not larger.
I hear what you're saying about big petrols making more horses, I absolutely agree with you 110%, but that is not the issue of the future. The issue simply is........ legislation will force engines to become smaller!, and that's when the diesel technology will gain the advantage, because the usable power found in the torque producing, low revving, fuel miserly diesel will satisfy the future emission legislation. Petrols will have to become smaller too..... but they just wont compete in the power stakes given the miserly fuel intake they will be forced to adopt. They simply can't produce the same torque because of the way the fuel is burnt, and they won't be able to access the power producing part of their rev range (high revs) because they'll then be using too much fuel - back to square one!
Make big capacity petrol engines that can produce the necessary power at lower revs? Won't work - they'll still use too much fuel and produce more of those nasty gases the legislation will not permit.
The mega powerful 5.0 ltr supercharged V8 petrol engine will be a dinosaur - no use to anybody (maybe motorsport?). Future success lies in small.
Diesel DOES have more energy than petrol, so it seems logical that diesels will gain the advantage when the point arrives whereby engines will be forced to use less fuel.
I agree the higher compression ratio must play a part in torque, but a component of this advantage must be balanced to some degree by the loading factor of compressing that air into the smaller combustion area when the piston is on the compression stroke (memories of trying to hand crank single cylinder diesel dumper engines without using the valve lifter!!). Isn't the higher compression ratio needed not only to ignite the diesel, but also to continue the slow burn when the piston has passed tdc, therefore creating the largest component of the torque - the greater expansion of combustion gasses? The more produces more principle!
What's your take on serious manuf's like, like Toyota, Honda, BMW, Lotus etc, conducting intense r & d into SMALL diesel engines....... and being majorly clandestine about it to boot? I see that as them wanting to hit the ground running when the time comes. They certainly aint doing it for fun! What we don't know is how far away this future legislation is, but judging by all this r & d, maybe not too far!!
I'd dump that big V8 if I were you mate, and get yer head into little diesels!! :} Leave those petrol boys floundering on the beach when the tide goes out. I'll work with you on that one and we'll get rich together :lick:
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Smoothandquick
Guest
Lol Rob...
Entertaining reading.....
Yup, 500 bhp, supercharged V8.....and this ain't some race lump dude....if I say a subsiduary of the big blu oval ? Lots of the blue oval group will be using this lump, all new, clean as you like, emissions proof for the next 2 predicted reductions in emissions targets....secondary air injection, exh gas recirc you name it....while there is a demand (and believe me we and blue oval sell a lot of large capacity engined cars) we will continue to develop,,,,
Interesting to look at Lexus...a large capacity gasoline/leccy hybrid that shows shite combined fuel economy figures - the public hear the word hybrid and buy it cos they thinks it's economical and green - what a load of tosh....
The main contibutor to diesel torque is compression ration and stroke....the available energy in diesel will do very little to increase torque. It is simply the turning moment of the con-rod driving the crankshaft - the force applied to the con rod is as a result of the compression ratio and the longer the stroke the greater the crank throw, i.e. more turning moment......
No, the compression is only needed to induce ignition of the fuel/air charge, not to keep it going. Once combustion has started, it will continue unitl all the fuel air charge is burnt....
Cheers for the offer Rob, but I am having some fun with 500 bhp wheels !!!! lol
Diesels will deffo take more market share and performance will deffo improve with new developments but gasolines ain't dead in the water yet !!!!!!
Watch this space !!!!
Entertaining reading.....
Yup, 500 bhp, supercharged V8.....and this ain't some race lump dude....if I say a subsiduary of the big blu oval ? Lots of the blue oval group will be using this lump, all new, clean as you like, emissions proof for the next 2 predicted reductions in emissions targets....secondary air injection, exh gas recirc you name it....while there is a demand (and believe me we and blue oval sell a lot of large capacity engined cars) we will continue to develop,,,,
Interesting to look at Lexus...a large capacity gasoline/leccy hybrid that shows shite combined fuel economy figures - the public hear the word hybrid and buy it cos they thinks it's economical and green - what a load of tosh....
The main contibutor to diesel torque is compression ration and stroke....the available energy in diesel will do very little to increase torque. It is simply the turning moment of the con-rod driving the crankshaft - the force applied to the con rod is as a result of the compression ratio and the longer the stroke the greater the crank throw, i.e. more turning moment......
No, the compression is only needed to induce ignition of the fuel/air charge, not to keep it going. Once combustion has started, it will continue unitl all the fuel air charge is burnt....
Cheers for the offer Rob, but I am having some fun with 500 bhp wheels !!!! lol
Diesels will deffo take more market share and performance will deffo improve with new developments but gasolines ain't dead in the water yet !!!!!!
Watch this space !!!!
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abbeytec
Guest
Stand well back...
If Diesel DOES have more energy than Petrol, why will throwing a lit match into a bucket of petrol blow my fookin head off, but diesel wont???:dunno: :dunno:
I'm not being a smart bastard, it's a genuine question...
R2B2 said:
If Diesel DOES have more energy than Petrol, why will throwing a lit match into a bucket of petrol blow my fookin head off,
but diesel wont???:dunno: :dunno: I'm not being a smart bastard, it's a genuine question...