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3 Lions
- Thread starter Wolfie
- Start date
Supabird1100
Registered User
Well Andy....as for the lion question......In the 11th century, Henry I, known as "the lion of justice", may have been the first English king to use a lion. It is uncertain as to why a second lion suddenly appeared. When Henry II married Eleanor of Aquitaine, whose family emblem was also a lion, it is believed that he added the third lion. There is no question that, when he led his English troops in the Crusades, Richard I, "the Lion-Hearted" carried a shield emblazoned with three golden lions on a red background. To this day they have been the royal symbol of England.
We're now debating the rose question here at me workplace !!!!!!! :}
We're now debating the rose question here at me workplace !!!!!!! :}
Supabird1100
Registered User
The popular vote here is that the red rose as a symbol came from the War Of The Roses (1455-1485).
The House Of Lancaster adopted the Red Rose as it's emblem and it became the official flower of England shortly after.
However.....the Cross Of St. George remains the accepted symbol of England.
The House Of Lancaster adopted the Red Rose as it's emblem and it became the official flower of England shortly after.
However.....the Cross Of St. George remains the accepted symbol of England.
J
Jack
Guest
Wolfie said:
Wolfie,
Here is what I remember and what I can find:
It is certain that lions, both rampant and passant were used by the Norman (the french bit) monarchs of England at the birth of Heraldry. However the arrangement of two gold passant guardant lions on red is a later rationalisation of various designs.
With the accession of Richard I in 1189 the present arms of England were adopted, three gold passant guardant lions on red.
The national flower of England is the rose. The flower has been adopted as England?s emblem since the time of the Wars of the Roses - civil wars (1455-1485) between the royal house of Lancaster (whose emblem was a red rose) and the royal house of York (whose emblem was a white rose)
and since York won the white rose is England's Symbol.
Hope it helps
Jack :-:
F
frenchuk
Guest
Gonna bounce that with a third question: why do the English people use the St George flag when St George never even set foot in England?
G
Grampi
Guest
:dunno: but St. Patrick is Welsh not Irish! :neenaw:
N
nigs
Guest
I think the St George bit came from the Crudades as well. George was actually from Palestine and proved to be a fierce fighter and leader. He came to symbolise valiant bravery and became a reallying point during the crusades. To keep morale high amongst the crusaders the symbol of 'St George' fighting against all odds was used to galvanise the troops. He's been used as a national figure and rallying point ever since - and you're right, he never actually set foot on English soil.
B
bitontheside
Guest
St George
Wasn't St George born in Cappadoccia in Turkey of Palestinian parents?
Wasn't St George born in Cappadoccia in Turkey of Palestinian parents?
Supabird1100
Registered User
Wolfie said:
Royal Crest ........or Royal Coat Of Arms, Andy ????
It is thought that the three lions may have come to England from Normandy but it was Richard the Lionheart (1189 - 1199) who, especially during the Crusades, used the three golden lions on their scarlet background as a powerful symbol of the English Throne.
The Crest appeared on his second Great Seal and thereafter three lions passant guardant have been known as "England".
As such, the Crest has appeared on the Royal Arms of every succeeding monarch and, today, is even employed to represent England in the sporting world.
Attachments
Wolfie
Is a lunp
The arms of England and France are two of the oldest and most well-known in heraldry, so we'll start off by taking a look at their origins.
The Leopards of England
The arms of King Richard I after 1195. These are still the arms of England.
King Richard I "the Lionheart", the famous crusader was the first of the English kings to bear the three golden lions on a red background which remain the arms of England to this day. In early heraldry, the lion was always shown in the position we would now call rampant. When it was found in the position which is now called passant guardant, it was thought to be a completely different animal- a leopard (which was believed to be the offspring of a Lion and a Pard). Thus when King Richard I adopted the three lions (passant) as his arms in 1195, they were called leopards rather than lions.
The arms attributed to King Henry II of England (and to William the Conqueror)
There has been a lot of speculation about what arms were borne by the English kings before Richard I. It was Richard's grandfather, Geoffrey Plantagent, Count of Anjou who is generally thought to have been the first man to bear a proper heraldic coat of arms back in 1127; his arms contained six golden lions on a blue background. However, we have no definite evidence about what arms Geoffrey's son (and Richard's father), King Henry II might have used. Usually Henry II is attributed two golden leopards on a red background. This coat of arms was certainly used by Henry II's younger son, John before he inherited the throne of England - at which point he adopted the three golden lions used by his elder brother Richard I. As King Henry II married Eleanor of Aquitaine, whose arms were a single golden lion on a red background, it has sometimes been suggested that when their son, Richard I adopted the three golden lions, he was combining the arms of his parents on one shield.
The arms of Queen Eleanor of Aquitaine
More fancifully, medieval heralds attributed two golden leopards to Henry II's great-grandfather, William the Conqueror who had died in 1087, fifty or so years before heraldry had been invented! The two lions therefore became associated with the Duchy of Normandy (in nothern France) for William the Conqueror had been Duke of Normandy before his invasion of England in 1066 led to his seizure of the English crown. It remains the coat of arms of Normandy today.
The question of whether the arms of the Dukes of Normandy, the Counts of Anjou and later, the Dukes of Aquitaine influenced the arms of England may seem academic, but it is connected to many of the reasons behind the Hundred Years War. Heraldry is often a way of visually showing the territories which a family has inherited and it was the inheritance by the English kings of these extensive lands in France which caused the tensions between the two countries.
The build up of lands in France held by English monarchs started when William the Conqueror who, as Duke of Normandy was already one of the most powerful barons in France, conquered England in 1066. From then on the Duchy of Normandy was held by members of the English royal family. The English monarchy then passed into the hands of the Counts of Anjou, so that the Anjou lands also became incorporated into the Kingdom of England. Finally, William the Conqueror's great-grandson, Henry II married Eleanor of Aquitaine, heiress to the vast duchy of Aquitaine in south-west France. Click here for the full family tree. At the height of his power, King Henry II of England actually controlled more territory in France than the French kings themselves; something which the French monarchs found very threatening.
The Leopards of England
The arms of King Richard I after 1195. These are still the arms of England.
King Richard I "the Lionheart", the famous crusader was the first of the English kings to bear the three golden lions on a red background which remain the arms of England to this day. In early heraldry, the lion was always shown in the position we would now call rampant. When it was found in the position which is now called passant guardant, it was thought to be a completely different animal- a leopard (which was believed to be the offspring of a Lion and a Pard). Thus when King Richard I adopted the three lions (passant) as his arms in 1195, they were called leopards rather than lions.
The arms attributed to King Henry II of England (and to William the Conqueror)
There has been a lot of speculation about what arms were borne by the English kings before Richard I. It was Richard's grandfather, Geoffrey Plantagent, Count of Anjou who is generally thought to have been the first man to bear a proper heraldic coat of arms back in 1127; his arms contained six golden lions on a blue background. However, we have no definite evidence about what arms Geoffrey's son (and Richard's father), King Henry II might have used. Usually Henry II is attributed two golden leopards on a red background. This coat of arms was certainly used by Henry II's younger son, John before he inherited the throne of England - at which point he adopted the three golden lions used by his elder brother Richard I. As King Henry II married Eleanor of Aquitaine, whose arms were a single golden lion on a red background, it has sometimes been suggested that when their son, Richard I adopted the three golden lions, he was combining the arms of his parents on one shield.
The arms of Queen Eleanor of Aquitaine
More fancifully, medieval heralds attributed two golden leopards to Henry II's great-grandfather, William the Conqueror who had died in 1087, fifty or so years before heraldry had been invented! The two lions therefore became associated with the Duchy of Normandy (in nothern France) for William the Conqueror had been Duke of Normandy before his invasion of England in 1066 led to his seizure of the English crown. It remains the coat of arms of Normandy today.
The question of whether the arms of the Dukes of Normandy, the Counts of Anjou and later, the Dukes of Aquitaine influenced the arms of England may seem academic, but it is connected to many of the reasons behind the Hundred Years War. Heraldry is often a way of visually showing the territories which a family has inherited and it was the inheritance by the English kings of these extensive lands in France which caused the tensions between the two countries.
The build up of lands in France held by English monarchs started when William the Conqueror who, as Duke of Normandy was already one of the most powerful barons in France, conquered England in 1066. From then on the Duchy of Normandy was held by members of the English royal family. The English monarchy then passed into the hands of the Counts of Anjou, so that the Anjou lands also became incorporated into the Kingdom of England. Finally, William the Conqueror's great-grandson, Henry II married Eleanor of Aquitaine, heiress to the vast duchy of Aquitaine in south-west France. Click here for the full family tree. At the height of his power, King Henry II of England actually controlled more territory in France than the French kings themselves; something which the French monarchs found very threatening.