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In the News 1st class...

T.C

Been there, and had one
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Unless you go for a zero alcohol limit there is not much more that can be done as far as changes in the law are concerned.

What it required is for the courts to stop f@cking about and really start dishing out some decent sentences.

For example, if they are sent to prison, don't allow their disqualification to run concurrently, make it run consecutively so their disqual starts when they come out.

I have spent too many hours in the mortuary with the remains of people who have been killed by drink drivers to have any sympathy for those who cannot resist the booze and then getting behind the wheel.
 

Martin L Batley

Been there, and had one
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There does need to be a change in the law, and it needs to be about the crime committed. If you intentionally drink/drug drive, then it's not an accident but a deliberate premeditated act. That means the crime should be one of murder and carry a lengthy sentence.
 

T.C

Been there, and had one
Club Sponsor
There does need to be a change in the law, and it needs to be about the crime committed. If you intentionally drink/drug drive, then it's not an accident but a deliberate premeditated act. That means the crime should be one of murder and carry a lengthy sentence.

Doesn't work that way I am afraid.

Murder and manslaughter are offences contrary to common law. There is only one penalty, Life imprisonment.

However, If you are in charge of a vehicle that is in some way responsible for the accidental death of another human being then you may have committed vehicular manslaughter.

This can happen in a number of ways. The most common are running over a pedestrian or person in the street, mounting the pavement and hitting a pedestrian or causing death by reckless driving or driving under the influence of alcohol

The problem with this act is that it is so old and has been used so rarely, it still refers to "Reckless Driving" which was replaced in the 1988 Road Traffic Act with Dangerous because reckless was so difficulty to prove because you have to prove a state of mind.

There are also 5 tests that have to be satisfied and from memory they are difficult ones to prove (I dealt with one case only in all my service and that case was in the late 70's) and so it is easier to go for the offences under the road traffic act and CPS don't like a fight anyway.

So with Drink driving not being an offence under common law but under the road traffic act and the maximum prison sentence the court can impose for causing death by dangerous driving or careless driving under the influence of drink or drugs is 14 years, so on that basis a charge of Murder or Manslaughter is not going to happen unless the driver deliberately uses the vehicle as a weapon, (which takes us back to the common law offence of Murder or Manslaughter) and the test of proof is easier to satisfy.

It gets all very muddy and confused sometimes. So sorry if I have confused you.
 

ogr1

I can still see ya.....
Club Sponsor
The offence committed wether intentional or under the influence is too one sided and very much in the favour of said 'dick head' behind the wheel.
Why all this protection?
The aftermath caused and the life changing dilemma left for the families
to deal with is just plain unfair.
No amount of compensation if any?
is going to solve what the people left
behind have to deal with.
Just another statistic shoved in the
archive files and forgotten about.
 

T.C

Been there, and had one
Club Sponsor
Why all this protection?

Well I certainly won't defend them.

Like I said, I got fed up to the back teeth of spending the majority of a late shift in the Mortuary with someone who had just been killed by a drink driver.

In one year I attended (did not deal with all of them but a few) over 200 fatal crashes, in some cases it was 2 a day and our resources were stretched to breaking point and this was in the day we had resources. 80% were caused by drink drivers.

On one night, my partner and I picked up 6 drink drivers, one was whilst we were taking another in for processing and they were all substantially over the limit.

The problem has been (and still is to a point in my opinion) that drink driving is still considered socially acceptable. Not to the same degree as it was a few years ago, but the number of people who will say something along the lines of "Wasn't he unlucky" or "Poor chap" is still too common.

Much of the problem lies with the legislators and the CPS.

Legislators have difficulty understanding traffic law because it is constantly changing, but even if they left the current laws as they were, they could quite easily increase the penalties to reflect the fact that people's views are changing about drink driving (especially with the younger generation), but on the flip side, drug driving seems to be the new accepted driving offence of choice for the youngsters.

The Judiciary are reluctant to hand down maximum penalties, and maybe if it started becoming more common place people may take a different view, and that I would suggest would be an easier more practical option.

Sorry, on my soapbox again. :oops:
 

Malone

Been there, and had one
Club Sponsor
Perhaps the judiciary should listen to the populace and forced to hand down harsher penalties. Drinking nd driving, like talking and texting on a mobile, are all conscious decisions to break the law. The law needs toughening and the penalties harder. Would someone talk, text on a mobile if the penalty meant disqualified for a minimum 12 months and confiscation and crushing of the vehicle? Try explaining that to your company vehicle provider!

how about a campaign - All Lives Matter? Probably not, there’s no colour involved.
 

Malone

Been there, and had one
Club Sponsor
A former friend of mine caused death by dangerous driving In his Jaguar, and I think was probably also under the influence - this was over 40 years ago, he spent a very long time in hospital with serious injuries, and then spent more than 10 years inside at ‘her Majesties pleasure.
 

Martin L Batley

Been there, and had one
Club Sponsor
Doesn't work that way I am afraid.

Murder and manslaughter are offences contrary to common law. There is only one penalty, Life imprisonment.

However, If you are in charge of a vehicle that is in some way responsible for the accidental death of another human being then you may have committed vehicular manslaughter.

This can happen in a number of ways. The most common are running over a pedestrian or person in the street, mounting the pavement and hitting a pedestrian or causing death by reckless driving or driving under the influence of alcohol

The problem with this act is that it is so old and has been used so rarely, it still refers to "Reckless Driving" which was replaced in the 1988 Road Traffic Act with Dangerous because reckless was so difficulty to prove because you have to prove a state of mind.

There are also 5 tests that have to be satisfied and from memory they are difficult ones to prove (I dealt with one case only in all my service and that case was in the late 70's) and so it is easier to go for the offences under the road traffic act and CPS don't like a fight anyway.

So with Drink driving not being an offence under common law but under the road traffic act and the maximum prison sentence the court can impose for causing death by dangerous driving or careless driving under the influence of drink or drugs is 14 years, so on that basis a charge of Murder or Manslaughter is not going to happen unless the driver deliberately uses the vehicle as a weapon, (which takes us back to the common law offence of Murder or Manslaughter) and the test of proof is easier to satisfy.

It gets all very muddy and confused sometimes. So sorry if I have confused you.
No it was very informative and thank you for the explanation. However, I did state my opinion with the premiss that the law does indeed need changing.
I am in favour of having a range of murder and manslaughter charges. This would enable the justice system to take into account the amount of intent involved within the charge instead of waiting for a verdict and mitigating argument from the defence.
 

Martin L Batley

Been there, and had one
Club Sponsor
When it comes to mobiles, it has always been illegal to use one while driving if not using a hands free kit. To make it more obvious they took it from under the umbrella of other driving offences and made it an offence in its own right. Yet again people consciously decide to flout the law and all too often this ends in tragedy. This is another area where a potentially fatal behaviour is looked on as acceptable and this needs to change.
 

T.C

Been there, and had one
Club Sponsor
This would enable the justice system to take into account the amount of intent involved within the charge instead of waiting for a verdict and mitigating argument from the defence.

I appreciate it was an opinion you have, and kit is a fair one at that.

But proving the intent is the difficult one because you have to prove a state of mind, and there has been a lot of case law (especially in the early days) where the prosecution pushed for a higher charge such as manslaughter or Murder, but the defence was always that 99% of people do not get into their vehicle with the intention of causing serious harm or death to another. (But like I said there are always exceptions)

Murder and Manslaughter will never be given an act on its own, it will always be common law as it dates back to Magna Carta, whereas the road traffic act is constantly changing with additional acts and sections always being introduced.

If they were to modernise the Vehicular manslaughter offence, that would open up a whole new range of penalties.

On top of that, CPS would rather plea bargain for a lesser offence rather than have a costly trial as all these cases would be required to go to the Crown Court,

When it comes to mobiles, it has always been illegal to use one while driving if not using a hands free kit. To make it more obvious they took it from under the umbrella of other driving offences and made it an offence in its own right. Yet again people consciously decide to flout the law and all too often this ends in tragedy. This is another area where a potentially fatal behaviour is looked on as acceptable and this needs to change.

Since 2003, it has been a specific offence to use a hand-held mobile telephone or other hand-held device for the purpose of any interactive communication (such as messaging, making or receiving calls or accessing the internet) while driving or while supervising a learner driver.

Before that and even now, there is still the option of reporting the driver for careless or dangerous driving which are the 2 most serious offences below causing death.

The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) (Amendment) (No 4) Regulations 2003 came into force on 1 December 2003. They amend the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986, by inserting Regulation 110 into the constructions and use regulations.

Regulation 110(1) and (2) prohibits a person from driving, or causing or permitting a person to drive, a motor vehicle on a road if the driver is using a held-hand mobile telephone or a hand-held device for an interactive communication function. Regulation 110(3) prohibits a person from using a hand-held mobile telephone or hand-held device while supervising a holder of a provisional license (learner driver), whilst the learner is driving.

It is an offence under Section 41D(b) of the RTA to contravene Regulation 110. The penalty imposed will depend upon the type of vehicle driven, but the Police will still go for the higher offence in the case of a crash providing it can be proved that the phone or device was in use at the time of the crash, or that device contributed to the cause of the crash.

That also applies in the case of a hands free device

The trouble is with education and even penalties, the impact does not occur quick enough especially with the kids on their devices as many if not most will be of the opinion that it will not happen to them because they have so much talent and ability behind the wheel.
 

ogr1

I can still see ya.....
Club Sponsor
You must have thought at times..
What is the point?
 

T.C

Been there, and had one
Club Sponsor
You must have thought at times..
What is the point?

Many times I thought that, but then back in my younger days I was not the cynic that I am today.

My job was to put the offenders before the court along with the evidence and if they walked away with a not guilty for whatever reason, then so be it, I knew that they would come again and land even heavier because they became cocky and over confident.

To be fair, it did not happen that often, but if it did, I would just bide my time. I never went home and sulked about it, we accepted that sometimes we would lose the occasional case.

But I think we had a different type of offender then. These days many are bar roon lawyers with a mate who knows the law and a massive chip on their shoulder, and I don't think it helps that the Police no longer do the driving/riding and specialist traffic law courses that we had to do.

My traffic law course was 14 weeks and all we did was traffic. My basic training covering everything was 12 weeks.

Now a traffic cop does 1 week traffic law/local procedure and 1 driving course of 3 weeks

That might have a bearing..
 

Cougar377

Express elevator to hell
Staff member
Moderator
Club Sponsor
I think the worst part of being a copper these days must be getting dragged into the politics of what happens on the streets of Britian these days.
It's probably much like being in the Forces where the troops (instead of politicians) get vilified for doing their job by sorting out the crap that politicians create.

I remember the grief I got from my mum, of all people, when I came back from the Falklands...."Why are you fighting Maggies War..?". Got similar after my first tour in NI.
"Hold on a second there....I don't choose where I serve, I go where I'm told. I don't take a side, I just do my job".

Must be similar for coppers.....and very frustrating when you cop the rough end of it from friends, family and the media.
 

Martin L Batley

Been there, and had one
Club Sponsor
Many times I thought that, but then back in my younger days I was not the cynic that I am today.

My job was to put the offenders before the court along with the evidence and if they walked away with a not guilty for whatever reason, then so be it, I knew that they would come again and land even heavier because they became cocky and over confident.

To be fair, it did not happen that often, but if it did, I would just bide my time. I never went home and sulked about it, we accepted that sometimes we would lose the occasional case.

But I think we had a different type of offender then. These days many are bar roon lawyers with a mate who knows the law and a massive chip on their shoulder, and I don't think it helps that the Police no longer do the driving/riding and specialist traffic law courses that we had to do.

My traffic law course was 14 weeks and all we did was traffic. My basic training covering everything was 12 weeks.

Now a traffic cop does 1 week traffic law/local procedure and 1 driving course of 3 weeks

That might have a bearing..
Knowing the actual laws that you are supposed to be enforcing I d say is a vital prerequisite of policing. To reduce the amount of time officers get to learn these laws is dare I say it criminal. That's why you get people getting off Scot free for doing something dodgy, because they have been charged under the wrong act. An example is the guy a few years ago who was found not guilty of committing a traffic offence because the officer charged him as driving a motor vehicle when he was on an electric scooter. Apparently it was a different classification of vehicle so the judge dismissed the case out of hand on a point of law. Due to the length of time between the offence and the case going to court, I believe they were unable to charge him under the correct act.
 

T.C

Been there, and had one
Club Sponsor
Knowing the actual laws that you are supposed to be enforcing I d say is a vital prerequisite of policing. To reduce the amount of time officers get to learn these laws is dare I say it criminal. That's why you get people getting off Scot free for doing something dodgy, because they have been charged under the wrong act. An example is the guy a few years ago who was found not guilty of committing a traffic offence because the officer charged him as driving a motor vehicle when he was on an electric scooter. Apparently it was a different classification of vehicle so the judge dismissed the case out of hand on a point of law. Due to the length of time between the offence and the case going to court, I believe they were unable to charge him under the correct act.


I have been stopped a couple of times for undertaking on the Motorway. I had one in particular who ranted and raved about how he was going to throw the book at me so when I asked him for what offence he got all confused and said "The offence of Undertaking" and then he said "Dangerous Driving" so I said something like "Fine, I look forward to having a day out in court when I plead not guilty!"

He was shocked when I gave him my reasoning for going not guilty and I then explained the law to him. He was unaware that undertaking had been removed from the statute books back in the 70's and undertaking on its own was insufficient to convict for dangerous or careless without other factors.

He was even less happy when I asked him why he was ignoring the centre lane hoggers which he had banged to rights for a careless driving offence under the subsection of driving without reasonable consideration for other road users. He was not a happy chappy and I would have hated to be the next motorist pulled over after he left me ;)

But that is the point. He was a traffic cop, and he was preaching law that does not exist or he did not understand and the public are on the receiving end assuming that he is the font of all knowledge. That type of traffic copper is now becoming few and far between. Many traffic cops have little understanding of traffic law these days.

Back in the day on the traffic law course, you were required to sit an exam every Friday. If you hot less than 80% you were given one further opportunity to get the mark up, if not then you did not bother returning the following Monday. You ended up going back to your force and 24 hours later you would be wearing a tall hat shaking door knobs at 2 in the morning. That was the difference.

And then this leads onto people being reported for the wrong offences.

For most traffic offences they are reported for summons.

To be charged you have to be arrested and that only happens in the most serious cases such as drink driving, Dangerous driving, driving whilst disqualified etc. They are charged prior to being released or when they answer to their bail, but the custody Sgt is usually the one who types up the charge sheet and then they are bailed to appear before a court on a certain date. It is usually the Sgt who decides the charge and charges the higher offence on the basis that it can always be reduced to a lesser offence, so to use the Murder analogy, Murder can be reduced to Manslaughter or wounding with intent or GBH

You cannot charge GBH and then go for a Murder charge unless the defendant is re-arrested and charged again.

With reporting for summons, it is very difficult to report for the wrong offences because the defendant is normally reported for the obvious offences and then also reported for any other offences that may be disclosed. This leaves scope to add further offences if required and then the summonses are typed and sent out with all the offences listed. So it is very different to being charged which a lot of the public don't understand.

If you are charged, you have been arrested and are really in the doo dah. Summonsed, you are in the poo but not to the same extent as being arrested and charged.

Then the other issue comes about of getting the case before the courts and this is where the CPS often screw up.

Information has to be laid before the courts within 6 months of the date of the alleged offence. In other words the court has to be told that it is the crown's intention to prosecute the individual.

If that information is not laid within 6 months, then case gets thrown out. If information is laid, it can still be several months before the case is heard. Longest I had was 24 months because defendant kept asking for an adjournment for several reasons and the court kept granting the delay. But the reality is that a case must be heard within a reasonable time unless there are extenuating circumstances.

But, I have known the CPS lose files and therefore cases thrown out as a result.

There was one case where a team of 4 had been held in custody for armed robbery, CPS lost the file and could not find the duplicate file, the 4 scumbags walked.

It can be frustrating

I am rabbiting on, sorry. (again)
 
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