You'll like this Petition to ban all IS members returning to the UK

andyBeaker said:

So an unborn innocent child becomes a victim?

Can't get my head round that.

Similarly I can't get my head round your opinion that I am over simplifying this - if anything it is the opposite; and it most definitely is contrasted to your 'solution'.

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The simplification Andy is even now you are saying what about the victim as though it is our responsibility whilst seemingly not taking the obvious questions

why is she now pregnant having lost 2 children that she seems reluctant to explain their deaths, if they even existed at all
Why was one of her questions in the interview, will I be arrested when I go back
at no point does she show any remorse, consideration or intent to change if returned to the U.K.
and lastly when you say "the unborn innocent child becomes a victim", what everyone else see's is why didn't this woman see the consequences of her own actions to herself and others, before taking those actions?

You see victim, others see events that are direct consequences of her own actions

Me! said:

Rather than run in from the surrounding crowd and twist the knife time to time, put your solution up on a pedestal as you seem quick enough to gnaw at everyone else’s. You apologise for having an opinion but have yet to ‘air’ it. The only thing you have offfered is that the security services be allowed to get on with things. You have no idea what they do.... it’s a bit like when the wheel falls off in any public situation, everyone including the haters..... call the police..... why?

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Look at my post 7.07pm yesterday. That is my opinion.

You are welcome.

noobie said:

The simplification Andy is even now you are saying what about the victim as though it is our responsibility whilst seemingly not taking the obvious questions

why is she now pregnant having lost 2 children that she seems reluctant to explain their deaths, if they even existed at all
Why was one of her questions in the interview, will I be arrested when I go back
at no point does she show any remorse, consideration or intent to change if returned to the U.K.
and lastly when you say "the unborn innocent child becomes a victim", what everyone else see's is why didn't this woman see the consequences of her own actions to herself and others, before taking those actions?

You see victim, others see events that are direct consequences of her own actions

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You are putting words in my mouth. I agree that she has put herself in the position she is in. And she has put her unborn child in that position as well.

But how can an unborn child pay the price for the bahaviour of the mother?

It seems to me that anyone who steps back and sees the bigger picture is labelled a 'snowflake'.

There are so many considerations to be taken into account - for instance Derek has made a very good point about gathering intelligence. Whether it is liked or not the woman is British and as such it is difficult to see how she can be refused entry into her own country (no, I don't like it either, but there it is). Has anyone considered how she ended up becoming radicalised? Does this make her a victim?? What are the implications if she stays in Syria - is this a bigger threat to our security? What happened to her in Syria - going at the age of 15 and now in her third pregnancy raises questions that need to be answered. I could go on.

None of these questions - and there are many more - have simple answers. As such it is a complex situation.

Before anyone starts jumping up and down, please note I have posed questions, not given my view!!

andyBeaker said:

So an unborn innocent child becomes a victim?

Can't get my head round that.

Similarly I can't get my head round your opinion that I am over simplifying this - if anything it is the opposite; and it most definitely is contrasted to your 'solution'.

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If she’s been radicalised, it is almost certain the child will be.

Even in the face of reasoning from others that is far more eloquent than mine, you still cannot and will not accept that you just don’t get it.

andyBeaker said:

Look at my post 7.07pm yesterday. That is my opinion.

You are welcome.

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Then you should have phrased it as your opinion as opposed to your ‘personal view’. One and the same effectively but you are allowing your unconscious bias to keep you on the fence.

Pow-Lo said:

If she’s been radicalised, it is almost certain the child will be.

Even in the face of reasoning from others that is far more eloquent than mine, you still cannot and will not accept that you just don’t get it.

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What 'don't I get'?

You have lost me completely.

I have expressed my views, they are different to yours.

I am not going to apologise for that!!

Me! said:

Then you should have phrased it as your opinion as opposed to your ‘personal view’. One and the same effectively but you are allowing your unconscious bias to keep you on the fence.

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And you will not have the good grace to acknowledge that you stuck the knife in without reading the thread properly.

andyBeaker said:

And you will not have the good grace to acknowledge that you stuck the knife in without reading the thread properly.

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Oh I read it but a bit like others have said... you’re stirring a nest to provoke views. You are the classic ‘pull a pin and walk away’ type.
I’m all for discussion but you’re the kid on the fence AB and promote argument as opposed to discussion.

andyBeaker said:

You are putting words in my mouth. I agree that she has put herself in the position she is in. And she has put her unborn child in that position as well.

But how can an unborn child pay the price for the bahaviour of the mother?

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No words put in your mouth Andy but just quoting the words you've used. The same as that "But how can an unborn child pay the price for the bahaviour of the mother?"

It cannot be anyone else's responsibility other than the mothers surely?

andyBeaker said:

There are so many considerations to be taken into account - for instance Derek has made a very good point about gathering intelligence. Whether it is liked or not the woman is British and as such it is difficult to see how she can be refused entry into her own country (no, I don't like it either, but there it is). Has anyone considered how she ended up becoming radicalised? Does this make her a victim?? What are the implications if she stays in Syria - is this a bigger threat to our security? What happened to her in Syria - going at the age of 15 and now in her third pregnancy raises questions that need to be answered. I could go on.

None of these questions - and there are many more - have simple answers. As such it is a complex situation.

Before anyone starts jumping up and down, please note I have posed questions, not given my view!!

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To be honest Andy, that^^ is typical nonsense who try and justify a black and white decision as too basic when basic is all that is needed, you see politicians do it all the time.

The age of 15 is a red herring, she is now 19 and had 4 years at the very heart of isis and is as radicalised as they come. Were they not about to be beaten from their very last stronghold, this woman would not be seeking to come back. She has been caught in Syria whilst being part of a terrorist organisation, let her face Syrian rules and justice

Yeah, but has she got big tits?

noobie said:

No words put in your mouth Andy but just quoting the words you've used. The same as that "But how can an unborn child pay the price for the bahaviour of the mother?"

It cannot be anyone else's responsibility other than the mothers surely?



To be honest Andy, that^^ is typical nonsense who try and justify a black and white decision as too basic when basic is all that is needed, you see politicians do it all the time.

The age of 15 is a red herring, she is now 19 and had 4 years at the very heart of isis and is as radicalised as they come. Were they not about to be beaten from their very last stronghold, this woman would not be seeking to come back. She has been caught in Syria whilst being part of a terrorist organisation, let her face Syrian rules and justice

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I agree that the unborn child 'should' be the responsibility of the mother but in reality this surely cannot be an acceptable way forward in this case? Let me put it another way - why should the unborn child be exposed to a radicalised mother? A child can't choose it's parents, but the state can protect it from unfit parents - sadly it happens all too often.

I can't remember if it was mentioned on here by someone but the recent case of the extreme right wing parents having their son 'Adolf' taken into care is a parallel example - and before anyone bangs on about 'nothing like it' please note I said 'parallel' i.e. Similarities.

If there wasn't a child involved it is a completely different scenario - but there is and it has to be dealt with as such.

At the end of the day, I do not believe there will be any choice other than to let her back into the country. I share the distaste but it looks inevitable.

Me! said:

Oh I read it but a bit like others have said... you’re stirring a nest to provoke views. You are the classic ‘pull a pin and walk away’ type.
I’m all for discussion but you’re the kid on the fence AB and promote argument as opposed to discussion.

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How am I 'on the fence'?

I have stated my views. Others have different views. That is not 'on the fence'.

Can't see you have expressed a view on this subject?

Anyone would think you are stirring it.....l

I’m not asking for a

andyBeaker said:

What 'don't I get'?

You have lost me completely.

I have expressed my views, they are different to yours.

I am not going to apologise for that!!

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That you over-simplify everything, you don’t offer a straightforward opinion yet you dismiss mine (and other people’s), and you’re sympathising with her as though she’s the victim.

I’ve heard the snowflakes bleating in the media that, as a child, she couldn’t construct a proper thought process and, therefore, she didn’t know what she was doing. You seem to be of similar opinion but you won’t come out with it. You say, in a nutshell, that she should be allowed in and what about the unborn child (that has apparently just been dropped).

She knew full well what she was doing and nothing will convince me otherwise. She’s a terrorist. We don’t want or need that sort in our country. She should be denied entry or, if she is allowed in, she should be banged up for life.

What do you think IS would do if they caught her trying to escape?

Oh, and I haven’t seen any post asking you to apologise.

Pow-Lo said:

I’m not asking for a


That you over-simplify everything, you don’t offer a straightforward opinion yet you dismiss mine (and other people’s), and you’re sympathising with her as though she’s the victim.

I’ve heard the snowflakes bleating in the media that, as a child, she couldn’t construct a proper thought process and, therefore, she didn’t know what she was doing. You seem to be of similar opinion but you won’t come out with it. You say, in a nutshell, that she should be allowed in and what about the unborn child (that has apparently just been dropped).

She knew full well what she was doing and nothing will convince me otherwise. She’s a terrorist. We don’t want or need that sort in our country. She should be denied entry or, if she is allowed in, she should be banged up for life.

What do you think IS would do if they caught her trying to escape?

Oh, and I haven’t seen any post asking you to apologise.

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You are not reading what I am saying.

At no point have I said I want her back into the UK.

I have said there is no choice, it is inevitably going to happen.

I have also said that I am not happy with that more than once.

Yes, she has made her bed and should lay in it.

Would that it were that simple.

Where have I dismissed the opinions of others??

How do you come to the conclusion that 'you seem to be of a similar opinion'? That is in your own mind, and is inaccurate.

I stand by what I said about anyone who has a different opinion seems to be called a 'snowflake'.

At the end of the day none of us are brilliantly informed about what is going on. It is a highly emotive subject and everyone is entitled to an opinion.

I will agree with you in that she is not wanted back into the uk. The difference between us is that a) I think it is inevitable that she will have to be allowed back if she wants back and b) I see the newborn as an innocent and would like to think that the newborn can be given a decent start in life I.e. By being taken away from the mother.

andyBeaker said:

You are not reading what I am saying.

At no point have I said I want her back into the UK.

I have said there is no choice, it is inevitably going to happen.

I have also said that I am not happy with that more than once.

Yes, she has made her bed and should lay in it.

Would that it were that simple.

Where have I dismissed the opinions of others??

How do you come to the conclusion that 'you seem to be of a similar opinion'? That is in your own mind, and is inaccurate.

I stand by what I said about anyone who has a different opinion seems to be called a 'snowflake'.

At the end of the day none of us are brilliantly informed about what is going on. It is a highly emotive subject and everyone is entitled to an opinion.

I will agree with you in that she is not wanted back into the uk. The difference between us is that a) I think it is inevitable that she will have to be allowed back if she wants back and b) I see the newborn as an innocent and would like to think that the newborn can be given a decent start in life I.e. By being taken away from the mother.

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1, So be clear man, do you want her back in the uk or not ?, you are correct in the above drivel that you have never said either way, is that just to provoke a reaction ? I suspect it is ! ...........on the fence again fella ffs spit it out !

2, How is in not simple ? become a member of a terrorist organisation & you are not welcome here ! only snowflakes make it harder work than that, stick them up against the same wall as her & I will happily pay for a few rounds !

3, You say let the security services do their job ..... like you know what that is ! I seriously doubt that & as jaws mentioned they haven't do very well in recent years, I suspect you would feel differently if your family had been on a bus in London not so long ago

In summery......... you are talking shite man !

Just my considered opinion you understand

To be fair to the security services they can only act on positive information, they can only monitor & not act upon unevidenced intel, it is a game of cat & mouse & sometimes wrong info is fed just for the hell of it.
We don’t always get to hear about the work done by the security services to bring down an enemy stronghold but we do get to hear about it when they make a mistake.

I don’t think the security services get the credit they deserve and the reasons for that are quite obvious. For the benefit of Beaker I guess I should qualify myself with at least one reason; it would mean exposing people on the inside for a start.

In the case of the subject matter, my view is clear. Terrorist carrying spawn of terrorist. You’re not welcome here so fuck off and eat kebabs over a camel shit fire somewhere else.

slim63 said:

1, So be clear man, do you want her back in the uk or not ?, you are correct in the above drivel that you have never said either way, is that just to provoke a reaction ? I suspect it is ! ...........on the fence again fella ffs spit it out !

2, How is in not simple ? become a member of a terrorist organisation & you are not welcome here ! only snowflakes make it harder work than that, stick them up against the same wall as her & I will happily pay for a few rounds !

3, You say let the security services do their job ..... like you know what that is ! I seriously doubt that & as jaws mentioned they haven't do very well in recent years, I suspect you would feel differently if your family had been on a bus in London not so long ago

In summery......... you are talking shite man !

Just my considered opinion you understand

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1. I couldn't have made it clearer. No, I don't want her back. What I have said is that it is inevitable that she will be allowed back as she is a uk citizen. The government response to the petition reproduced above explained this
2. I have no issue with that, other than it ignores the fate of an innocent unborn child. If that makes me a 'snowflake' (which in my view is a pretty pathetic trendy term used to describe someone with a different opinion) then I can live with that
3. You really,really shouldn't have gone there. Not looking for sympathy, merely stating facts. I have been blown out of two offices in London by the IRA, was too near the Aldgate tube blast for comfort and worked with people who were directly affected by same. I was directly involved in clearing a number of buildings of people who were terrified beyond words at what was going on. An ex colleague was injured in the Bloomsbury bus attack. My brother was severely traumatised by the Admiral Duncan attack and was also involved in the clear up following the Hyde Park attack.

Let me pose you a question - if the lady who wants back in was your daughter would you feel different??

I don't know what the security forces get up to, same as you, same as everyone else (that is kind of the point) but I would much rather they were allowed to get on with what they do rather than have uninformed outside influences getting in the way. It is easy to criticise them as terrorist incidents have occurred - that is the blame culture we live in; rather than blaming the root cause i.e. terrorists the security services/police/government are blamed as it's easy. Stopping terrorism is a pretty impossible job; judging by the reduced number of incidents I personally would surmise the security forces have done a pretty decent job. I am not saying it is solved; I don't think it ever can be.

I haven't got a problem with you thinking I am talking 'shite' - that is your right. But at least have the courtesy of not twisting/ignoring what I have said and making assumptions about me.

On the news - apparently you cannot legally leave a person with no citizenship!!

Squag1 said:

On the news - apparently you cannot legally leave a person with no citizenship!!

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Correct.

As stated in the government response to the petition above........


"UK nationals have the right to return to the country, but anyone who does return from taking part in the conflict in Syria or Iraq will be investigated by the police and prosecuted where there is evidence that they have committed criminal offences."


That is why is appears inevitable that she will have to be allowed back in.


Whether she now decides not to 'come back' as it appears she is facing incarceration is going to be interesting.