IAM in Kent

[andyBeaker]

Evening all.

anyone any experience of the IAM based at Wrotham?

I am looking to do a course but the feedback have read suggests IAM varies significantly from branch to branch?

Any commments appreciated.

regards

Andy

 

[Steamy]

Andy,

I'm currently doing an IAM course based up in Lincolnshire. The guy taking me is an ex Police biker and great fun to ride with. He says that they do tend to vary from area to area although they stick to a set syllabus and just add their own style to it. If you haven't started yet then do give it a whirl. They'll take you out on an assessment ride first and then assign you to an observer. It's all very relaxed and you certainly learn a hell of a lot about your own riding style. I'm actually a fully qualified instructor and I am doing it just to improve my own riding. Even so, it has helped me enormously and I am getting loads out of it.​

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DO go for it, I know there are a few people here that take the piss out of the IAM, but that's fine. It doesn't suit everybody.​

​

Stef​

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​

 

[Codbasher]

Andy,

If you get in touch with Kent Motorcycles at Canterbury, they will put you in touch with thier local IAM who should be able to put you in touch with someone local to you...

Hope this helps....

 

[Valley Boy Greg]

Log on to www.iam.org/uk

Go to IAM Groups on the top of the page and then UK groups.
On the LH side of next page.
Use the map to find the group closest to you, could be Kent or East Kent.

I'm active with the Gwent group, the other comments posted are very true. The course content is constant throughout the UK including the test but there is some variation in how groups approach it.

MOST, including Gwent, allocate an Observer to you for one-to-one sessions and you sort the times out yourselves. You will continue with that Observer until you take the test but if you want you can request a change and get another Observer if available.
This may be because your availability may be incompatible with your observers, or maybe even if you think he is a complete PRICK and want someone else.

However some hold training days on specific days such as every second and last Sunday of the month where you will be given whichever Observer is available at that time.
A few other groups run specific courses on given dates such as every other Saturday for a period of 12 weeks hence six sessions.

Just check how your local group approach it in case work comittments mean you would never get to attend a training ride.
It tends to be the larger London based groups that have fixed days as they could not possibly offer one-to-one due to the numbers joining.

 

[Mac166]

when you get advice from your observer I recommend you verify it yourself wioth the appropriate Literature.

I have heard many and seen a number of so called advanced observers give poor advice about the ride. One of the biggest area's of contention is speed limits. I spoke to an observer from a group, out of my area, and his advice on speed limits was 30's and 40's rigid, 50's a little leeway, and nationals GLF. Another group used to mark associated down for not exceeding the 60mph national speed limit on a quiet road. I was speaking to a driving examiner who had first hand experiance of an observer encouraging and associate to exceed a speed limit. I also spoke to an observer from a group who told me it was acceptable to go out to do an overtake on a broken white line and return over a solid white line.

I am not trying to say all observers do this sort of thing but they are volunteers and many don't get their bike's out unless doing a training day and not in poor weather conditions. Many do it for fun as they have no other excuse to get out to 'play' on their bikes.

I look forward to when advanced is totally regulated and you must attend a proper qualification and be on a register to teach it.

I recommend going to a training school who can offer advanced motorcycle training. It will cost more but as these guys and guyette's teach motorcycling for a living they may find and be able to correct any faults earlier and they will not encourage illegal activities as it is their lively hood and company reputation at stake.

I know some will bite at what I have written but I am telling you what I have seen first hand, you read my input and make your own choices, but my advice is speak to the professionals.

 

[fairb]

IAM

I like to think that IAM training made me a better rider and it didn't cost that much so I would recommend it The only thing I found was that after doing the IAM test there's not much to do if you don't want to become an observer. RoSPA, on the other hand, makes you re-test every 3 years. I think both are good.

As someone said, the quality of the training varies according to who is giving it. Just beware of the observers with large egos who feel they missed their calling to be a police motorcyclist. Tell tale signs are flip-up white helmets and rides a pan.

 

[Valley Boy Greg]

To double check any advice you are given is to approach your training in a thoughtful manner, after all we should be able to apply our own thoughts to all this and not just blindly respond to promptings from anyone - professional or not. d34l

Take on board what you agree with and ignore the rest, but most of what i ignored made more sense later on when incidents made me realise the relevence of the advice i was given.:xm

Speed is approached in different manners, we tend to hide behind the term "Making progress." But i have seen this in all walks of so called Advanced Riding not just IAM but also RoSPA and retired Police topping up their pension by charging ?150 per day. Bikesafe has come in for bad publicity because it is said "They" are using it as an excuse to ride around greatly in excess of the speed limits.g0551p

Gwent approach it in the manner of being restricted to speed limits at all times during the course after all what gives us the right to recommend to anyone that they can break the speed limit? The test is at speed limits so you may as well prepare in that manner
How i ride socially is another matter, similar to that described by Mac being respectful in 30s and 40s but not blindly GLF in the nationals more a case of squirting on if safe to do so.sh1tehppns

IAM qualifications are internally governed being approved by the Driving Standards Agency and recognised by all major insurance companies, they are not however governed by any national standard.

Professional instructors should have a higher standard of qualification after all they do this for a living yet IAM are volunteers so it's reasonable to assume you would get a higher standard of instruction from a Pro.
But that is expensive and usually a one off, maybe one or two days and off you go. IAM groups give you the chance to continue this through maintaining your membership and being active with rideouts, tours and so on.

I believe the thing for all these different providers of advanced motorcycling courses is not to compete with or critisise anyones efforts. Whether it's IAM, RoSPA, Bikesafe, Professional private instruction, they are all beneficial so judge which is best for your own purposes and budget and have a go rather than not do anything at all.w4lc0m3

Pheeew, Andy must be wondering what he started. Just have a go Andy if it's what you want but be sure to go with an open mind and above all - ENJOY - after all why else would we have bikes and in particular, Blackbirds.:yo:

 

[Valley Boy Greg]

Just read Fairb's message, great.

There's a wannabe that pulls into Abergavenny often on a Sunday, don't know who he is or if he's a member of any organisation and i've no intention of striking up a conversation with him to find out.
White flip up, Hi-Viz, White BMW thingy with police like decals (probably the only time he gets a Hardon - whats a Hardon someone is sure to ask).
When he pulls in during Bikesafe the plod think it hilarious and that's while they are doing their best to be politically correct. I'd like to hear their opinions on him in private.
What a Nob.

 

[Mac166]

It's nice to see the general concensus seems to go in the same direction which is unusual on the forum.

There are good and bad in all forms of training from so called professionals cutting short cbt road rides (min 2hrs but I often hear of 20 - 40 min ones) to volunteers with large ego's.

The main thing's to think about 'what are you doing it for'? ie lower insurance premiums or longer life expectancy etc. and at the end of the day it is your licence. If you are caught speeding or involved in an accident where excessive use of speed (on your part) is put down as a contributory factor saying 'but officer my instructor told me to go that fast' won't wash.

IAM has always used the excuse of being observers with no radio contact thereby voiding themselves of any liability, professional organisations must have public and 3rd party liability insurance along with professional indemnity and as a result will use radio contact.

The other thing to remember is to become an Observer in the IAM is very easy. Mates test mates with no external independant assessments. Many have no formal teaching qualifications either. Professional training schools tend to have higher qualifications such as Diploma's in Advanced motorcycling instruction, or qualifications such as BMF Blueriband assessors.

 

[Rods]

This is developing into a very interesting thread - some very valid points havce been made - both advocating and criticising the different kinds of advanced rider training on the market.

I should make my position clear before I start - I am an observer for the IAM, and yes I wear a high visibilty jacket, and a white helmet. This is in no way an attempt to be a police officer - or because I think I have missed my calling to be one - i use my bike to commute on, in addition to playing at the weekends, holidays, and assisting my local IAM branch. The point that everybody's individual experience of a different group will be different is a valid one - I have not done RoSPrA, but I have done a bikesafe course, and, obviously, I have also done the IAM test. Some of the instructors I have been out with have been totally useless, some fantastic.

As Valley Boy Greg points out, each IAM group approaches the preparation for the test in a different way. Our club runs a theory course prior to, and alongside, the practical sessions - 3 evenings on theory, and 4 rideouts (though the majority of associates require longer to become test ready). The club I belong to is London based, and we, with the odd exception, manage to get 1 observer for 1 associate on practical sessions (I have only once had to take 2 associates out). We do not assign an individual observer to an associate - a range of different inputs (based on the same lines so as to avoid any confusion), communicated in different ways, should enable people to take more, and apply it to their own riding where necessary.

Mac I'm really disappointed to hear about the differing (and quite frankly poor) advice that has been given out by observers you have encountered. The observers at my club meet every 6 - 8 weeks, giving us an opportunity to ensure that we are all reading from the same hymn sheet - and none of us would advocate crossing a solid line, or encourage breaking the speed limit. We are assessed every 3 months by Senior Observers at the club (to become a Senior Observer a further test must be taken with the IAM) - the majority of our Senior Observers are traffic police. The observers at the club also go on regular runs on days when the club is not running a course ride. Hopefully these measures ensure that our riding standards, and observing standards are kept to a suitable level.

I quite agree with Fairb that a major weakness with the IAM is the lack of re-testing, and the fact that it is purely a pass/fail exam. For those without the time/inclination to become an observer, there is nothing beyond the test. However, there is nothing stopping you carrying on doing assessed rides with your club - we actively encourage those who have passed their IAM test to continue with assessed rides. Just because you have passed your IAM test doesn't mean you are a perfect rider - far from it. We all have room for improvement.

In my personal experience I would have to disagree with Mac regarding mates testing mates to become observers. Once again, I can only speak from personal experience - I had to follow a course to become an observer at my local IAM group. During this time I was assessed by traffic policeman (some of whom instruct on Met Police Bikesafe), and I was put under no illusion that there were standards I had to meet. I am happy to admit that I am no god on 2 wheels, I still ask people for any observations regarding my riding, but if I can pass on what experience I have, then I'm happy to do it. You never know, it could save somebody's life.

As has been said several times, and it is a great shame, but it seems to depend on who you end up with. I would encourage anybody thinking about advanced rider training to investigate carefully whichever route might be best for them, in their local area, and never take any advice blindly.

Sorry for rambling. R#? bl4hbl4h bl4hbl4h

 

[Mac166]

Hi Rods,

Things may have tightened up in the past few years. And it sounds like your group is doing well with the issue, I can only congratulate your group for that. I was a member of a local group which is so big it has been split into localised area's to make it easier to pass on info to the observers. I was an observer with the group and had a number of test passes accredited to me. we had regular meeting to pass on info and loads of social runs. During these runs there was often an accident and I regulary saw speeds well in excess of the posted limits. We all 'pinch' a little on occassions but I am talking of scary speeds on little roads. Usually when the marker system was used on runs and the rider who had just marked wanted to get back to the front.

I departed the group after having incorrect tyres fitted to my bike by a local garage. I placed a warning on the e-group advising other persons to be careful. Members of the committee started to visit me at home for a 'cup of tea and a chat' where I was strongly advised to refute my complaint. The garage even threatened to sue me personally. I contacted Bridgestone who backed me up in writing suddenly it was a case of 'let sleeping dogs lie'. It turned out that the garage sponsored my group......mmmm politics in the making. I never even got offered an apology or a replacement set of tyres.

One of my DAS customers approached the local group and spoke to an observer who just bragged of his ability. He was told that if he went a bit wide on a bend the observer would undercut him to prove a point. Quite rightly his alarm bells started to ring and he walked away and came to me for that training.

I know of cross check observers who also left after concerns about the correct use of speed in the name of 'making progress'. I know members of the local police traffic unit who have stopped groups of speeding bikers to be told it was an observer giving a group demo run. They now refer to the group as 'I'm an average motorcyclist' due to the amount of times they have had negative dealings with them.

Being an advanced or off duty police class 1 motorcyclist does not give you cart blanche to ride like a plum.

Simple.

I would like to think that these issues were being addressed and these bad apples were being removed from the clubs. They give a bad name to the IAM, and motorcyclists in general. We have enough issues with the green welly brigade wanting to stop us using most of the country roads for rides out and this just gives them more ammo to use against us.

 

[Bob Pinder]

IAM qualifications are internally governed being approved by the Driving Standards Agency

When did the DSA approve?

Can you post a link so we can read more?

 

[Mac166]

The IAM has always claimed to be 'obseervers' not instructors, to get round the insurance issues.

I was under the impression that the DSA are trying to get a register of qulaified advanced motorcycle instructors. As part of this the IAM is going to have to look at it's position, as you will soon not be able to give advanced instruction without being registered.

to get registered you have to have attended and passed a recognised course which includes instructional and ride ability, similar to the CBT(c) and DAS assessments.

 

[Mac166]

Bikers have little brand loyalty and are far happier to be led by the nose to the cheapest prices then whinge about the bad service :rant:

I totally agree with that Bob. ?'s and pence is what drives most not quality.

 

[Valley Boy Greg]

Taken from the IAM web site www.iam.org/uk - Ok approved not the exact terminology but with a shaved and polished dome i'm not in a position to split hairs.


The IAM's Advanced Driving Test is recognised and accredited by the Driving Standards Agency (DSA).

The Advanced Driving Test has been in existence since 1956 (and the Advanced Riding Test since 1976) and details of those are described under the Menu item above of ADVANCED TEST.


Mac, your experience is not good and you have every right to critisise the mystery group - how about naming names?
Seems like they are big on self promotion and trying to look good.

IAM groups have third party liability insurance, i wouldn't observe without it as maybe one day someone with a big fat Lawyer will point the finger at me to deflect blame from themselves after a spill.

I can't see the relevence of using comms and third party insurance, some groups are using them but with or without comms the insurance is still necessary.

 

[Mac166]

It was never a bone of contention re the IAM or it's test. I am still a member of the IAM.

The issue is the quality of some of the volunteer observers. They seem to have got side tracked in their own little ivory towers of power and have forgotton the basic fundamentals of road law and being an advanced rider / observer.

I have come across some very good instructors but also some who would be lucky to pass the DAS test. How many can do a full lock fig 8? Not many. I have had so called advanced riders who wants to teach CBT's who failed/struggled to do one on a 125cc machine never mind their big powerful ones and they expect to teach others mmmm I think not

 

[T.C]

The IAM has always claimed to be 'obseervers' not instructors, to get round the insurance issues.

Would you like to see the case law which shows this claim to be absolute crap!

The High Court has held after a fatal RTA that a part time observer is just as liable as a full time professional instructor.

The fact that an individual offers knowledge or training to another regardless of their status will be deemed to be accountable if it can be shown that their instruction, advice or tuition contributed to the downfall of their "Student"

The term observer is just a blind at the end of the day whether it is for payment or otherwise they are still deemed to be instructing, and before long there will be a few more of these types of cases appearing before the courts.

How do i know? I am the investigator! sh1tehppns

 

[Duck n Dive]

Hmmmm...... my little tuppence worth......


When I got the 'bird I was returning to biking after a very long lay off........... on the whole I was sure I would have little problem with the basic bike handling etc., but I was also very aware that most importantly the power and ability of bikes had moved on apace. While basic ability might still be there it would certainly be very rusty...

I arranged a days "assesment/training" prior to collecting the 'bird. This was with a commercial teaching establishment. While raising an eyebrow or two at returning to riding on a 'bird we discussed my previous bking experience and agreed what would be done.

Originally this had been planned for a week or so before the 'bike would be ready from the dealer. In this way there would be an oppurtunity for me to take further training if any concerns came up.

In the event getting an instructor lined up (I did leave it very late to organise so not the school's fault).

Anyway the instructor was an ex police class 1, he works freelance for the training school, runs his own training show and also is an IAM chappie - actually met him since on the IAM stand at Oulton Park.

Anway the time problem meant that I ended up doing the course on the day the bike was actually ready for collection!!!

The dealer agreed that if the result of the asesment/training meant I was considered not OK to ride the bike they would deliver.


Anyway the day came around........ first we took one of the schools Suzuki bikes (500 I think?) to their off road bit (no ..not that sort of off road!). Oh and radios used for comms - although my ear hurt by the end of the day.

There I went through basic handling/control.... in/out cones in all directions and patterns. Slow speed handling. Braking control plus emergency stops etc etc.
We then took to the road, briefing for this warned that all speed limits were to be observed at all times. After a while we stopped for some advice on my riding. Basically I was told that after the first 30 mins I had obviously settled down, handling and control was fine, observation was excellent but I did need some work on road positioning.

With a bit more work and annother stop to discuss, the advice was that if I was happy there was no reason why I could not complete the rest of the day on my own bike - we had met up at the dealers who had confirmed the bike ready before we left........

With some nervousness I said yep.......... we went back and collected the 'bird...... with me pillion we then went back to off road area where I did all the cone and handling stuff as earlier but this time on the bird. Back to the dealer where we picked up the instructors bike.

It then started pissing down........................ so we did annother quick visit to the off road area to practice some emergency stops in the wet.

Off we went..... the rain got worse... well I thought so anyway.....
We headed off towards Welsh Wales along lots of windy roads. I was advised that I was taking the corners far too cautiously (it's true I was going like it was ice around the corners in the wet).

Instructor explained that I could have much more confidence the tyres (original BT57's) and so I follwed him with the promis that he would not exceed arounf 60% of the tyre/bikes ability.

This was indeed an eye opener and settled me down even more.

We swopped back positions and I led until we arrived at "the pondersa"!!

Stopped for lunch were we also chatted about lines etc and I was gently/subtly quizzed.

The after lunch brief was to continue sticking to the posted limits but I could use discretion otherwise...... but to remain within my capabilities at all times.

It was still pissing down....... anyway more twisties, more confidence and we were eventually heading back to the dealers. At one point (on a quite dual carriageway) we did a "OK if you want to, follow me, do not overtake... you can explore the blackbird's power here". We did so and I was amazed when looking at the speedo... it certainly didn't feel like that.

After returning to the dealers and returningthe kit to the school it runed out that his route home was the same as mine so we went together for a while.

The end of day briefing was that I was riding well considering the time away, my observation was very good which in turn meant I was avoiding potentially hazardous situations well. My nervoussness in the wet had clearly reduced during the day but I was still ocassionally a little over cautious but not to worry unduly about that.
Recommendation was simply to practice what we'd gone over and to just build up miles to get a feel for the bike and become really comfortable.
Suggestion was once I done that and felt very confident it would be time to consider doing some more training/assesment. He explained the options through the training school, him personally and the IAM. There was no lean or pressure in anyway to persuade me any one was any better than the others.

So.... my view on training......... the person delivering has to competent not just in their riding skills/ability but much more in being able to get the poor devil they have with them to actually "do" the things they suggest.

For me I built up a huge confidence during that day, understood my weaknesses, dramatically improved my wet weather riding (I'm still cautious but much better than I was!) which by the way I thing is brazillions better than it used to be years ago!!
I have no doubt that this was due to the expertise of the chap with me..

:bow: :bow: :yo:

 

[ManicMan]

Would you like to see the case law which shows this claim to be absolute crap!

Evenin' TC

Any chance of providing the full case reference for this? It would be handy to have for future discussions.

Cheers

Manic

 

[Mac166]

Hi T.C


If I am wrong then I am willing to learn. The statement I made was what I was told as an observer when I requested either buying my own or being issued with a set of radios.