• Welcome to the new B.I.R.D. Forum. Please be sure to read the "New Member / New Registered ? Please Read" thread in the Coffee Shop. This contains some important information. To become a full member ( £5.90 a year ) simply click on your user name near the top on the right I hope you enjoy the new site ................ Jaws ( John )

Down the road!!!!!!

  • Thread starter Alan Hodges
  • Start date

parttimepilot

FJR and Bird Commander
Glad to hear you are not too badly hurt, I know it doesn't seem like it but a bike can be fixed or replaced, Repairing broken bones takes for fookin ever

Now to the rest of you,
No more off's allowed, the budget has been maxxed by Buzz and myself, any abuse of this will result in a severe telling offb0x1

We are NOT having a 2006 off squad OK???




By the way I've been back at work for about 5 weeks. The guys have bought me a set of stabilisers in the Halfords sale:lol::bow:
 

Jaws

Corporal CockUp
Staff member
Moderator
Club Sponsor
Well looking on the bright side(s)

1) on average people who exceed 4000 miles per year on a motorcycle have an accidnet ( usually non life threatening ) once every 4.3 years ( according to some weird and wonderful bit of paper )

So you are not due another for 10 years :p !!

2) You up and walking ( albeit wounded ) and can beat the shite out of the council until you get a big fat payout !!

Go get em fella !
 
A

Alan Hodges

Guest
back soon!!

heard today i will have it back in 2 weeks

i have apparently worn the sump down by sliding on it on the
kerb alla skate boarding

requires new screen . left panel and headlight cover. left mirror and indicator . crankcase cover and 2 new pipes as i have somehow worn them down

new heine g kit needed as well as they are scuffed to bollocks

bet u cant guess how much i have to pay myself though - nearly dropped dead -------?550 :violin: might aswell join the scally brigade and ride around with bugger all tax or insurance -- i am 46 years old not bloody 21:bang:

heres hoping anyway!!!!!!!!!!! al:yo:
 
G

Greb

Guest
Well thats, thieving bastard insurance companies for you,talk about money for old rope:xm
 

Smix

Fcuk Up Fairy
did you go to the council?? they have been known (in some areas) to pay out for damages? as it was the state of the road that caused the damage??
 

T.C

Been there, and had one
Club Sponsor
Smix said:
did you go to the council?? they have been known (in some areas) to pay out for damages? as it was the state of the road that caused the damage??

Before jumping on the "lets sue the council" bandwagon, read the following which may clarify why it can be so difficult to make a successful claim against the local authorities.

I wrote this at a time I was having a real problem proving liability against the local authority, and although I wrote it about 2 years ago, things have not really changed in that time.

As motorcyclists we are constantly having to look out for poorly maintained road surfaces, loose gravel, diesel spillage, pot holes in fact a whole manner of potential problems that can affect the balance, grip and stability of the bike, and therefore our own safety.

Where the roads have been poorly maintained, or there is poor signage, or inadequate advanced warning of visibility or debris, there are many that will advise you to sue the local authority. In some cases this course of action may well be justified, however, before everyone jumps on the bandwagon, remember that any potential legal action against the local authority will be drawn out with no guarantee of success.

Section 41 of the Highways Act 1980 imposes a duty on the local authority to maintain a road. Section 58 of the Highways Act 1980 goes on to say that there will be a statutory defence if the Highways Authority has taken ?such care as is in all the circumstances reasonably required?.

The issue of liability against the Highways Authority has recently been highlighted in the case of Gorringe v Calderdale Metropolitan Borough Council (2002).

In Gorringe, the Claimant was involved in a head-on collision with a bus on the crest of a hill in West Yorkshire. On the approach to the crest there was a point at which the road dipped gently and turned to the right before rising uphill to the crest. Before the dip the course of the road was clearly visible. However, once in the dip a driver could not see the road beyond the crest until virtually at the crest, and in particular drivers would not be able to see the sharp left hand bend at the crest and a sudden change in gradient and the adverse camber.

Although a sign informing drivers of an uneven road surface stood between the dip and the crest, there had also once been a ?SLOW? road marking which was found to be no longer visible as a result of wear and tear and/or resurfacing.

At first it was held that the Council had breached its duty to maintain the highway and the fact that it had failed to repaint the road markings were sufficient to find in favour of the Claimant. However the Court of Appeal decided that a road marking was not part of the physical or structural condition of the roadway and therefore lay outside the Council?s duty of care. The appeal was allowed.

This case suggests that the odds may be somewhat stacked against us, as you would think that advance warning signs are an important part of our decision making process - but all is not lost. Section 39 of the Road traffic Act 1988 makes it a requirement for every local authority to carry out a programme of measures designed to promote road safety. They must carry out studies into accidents arising from the use of vehicles on any road other than trunk roads within their area and, in light of those studies, take such measures as appear appropriate to the authority to prevent such accidents. This will include the construction, improvement, maintenance or repair of roads for which they are the highway authority.

In the case of Lavis v Kent County Council (1992) a motorcyclist suffered severe injuries when he collided with a kerbstone on a sharp bend. The rider claimed negligence against the Council for failure to erect various signs warning motorists of the bend. The Council succeeded initially in having the case dismissed, but the rider appealed. The appeal was successful as the Court of Appeal concluded that the Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984 imposed a duty on the authority to take reasonable care in implementing the requirements of the Act. They had taken no appropriate steps at all.

However, in 1994 the Council faced a similar claim! It was alleged that the authority was responsible for the Claimant?s accident in that it failed to erect a road sign in addition to the double broken white lines already in existence thereby providing warning of an approaching T junction. In the absence of evidence from a competent road engineer, the Claimant (Mr Lavis) failed to establish that any additional warning was necessary. The claimant was found wholly responsible for his accident.

The local authority does have a duty of care to keep our roads in a serviceable and safe condition but it is not always a cut and dried issue. In the majority of cases liability will be strongly, and quite possibly successfully, contested.

If you feel that there is a case to answer and you want to start the ball rolling, make sure you are properly advised ? and be prepared for a long drawn out fight. More importantly don?t be surprised if the end result is rather different to what you expected!


The key area is-

"Section 41 of the Highways Act 1980 imposes a duty on the local authority to maintain a road. Section 58 of the Highways Act 1980 goes on to say that there will be a statutory defence if the Highways Authority has taken ?such care as is in all the circumstances reasonably required?.

All that they will have to show for a claim to fail is that the road has been inspected and records kept within a reasonable time frame, and the term reasonable is open ended, and it has become particularly relevant since the law changed to ensure that roads were kept free of snow and ice.
 

derek kelly

The Deli lama
Club Sponsor
T.C said:
Before jumping on the "lets sue the council" bandwagon, read the following which may clarify why it can be so difficult to make a successful claim against the local authorities.

I wrote this at a time I was having a real problem proving liability against the local authority, and although I wrote it about 2 years ago, things have not really changed in that time.

As motorcyclists we are constantly having to look out for poorly maintained road surfaces, loose gravel, diesel spillage, pot holes in fact a whole manner of potential problems that can affect the balance, grip and stability of the bike, and therefore our own safety.

Where the roads have been poorly maintained, or there is poor signage, or inadequate advanced warning of visibility or debris, there are many that will advise you to sue the local authority. In some cases this course of action may well be justified, however, before everyone jumps on the bandwagon, remember that any potential legal action against the local authority will be drawn out with no guarantee of success.

Section 41 of the Highways Act 1980 imposes a duty on the local authority to maintain a road. Section 58 of the Highways Act 1980 goes on to say that there will be a statutory defence if the Highways Authority has taken ?such care as is in all the circumstances reasonably required?.

The issue of liability against the Highways Authority has recently been highlighted in the case of Gorringe v Calderdale Metropolitan Borough Council (2002).

In Gorringe, the Claimant was involved in a head-on collision with a bus on the crest of a hill in West Yorkshire. On the approach to the crest there was a point at which the road dipped gently and turned to the right before rising uphill to the crest. Before the dip the course of the road was clearly visible. However, once in the dip a driver could not see the road beyond the crest until virtually at the crest, and in particular drivers would not be able to see the sharp left hand bend at the crest and a sudden change in gradient and the adverse camber.

Although a sign informing drivers of an uneven road surface stood between the dip and the crest, there had also once been a ?SLOW? road marking which was found to be no longer visible as a result of wear and tear and/or resurfacing.

At first it was held that the Council had breached its duty to maintain the highway and the fact that it had failed to repaint the road markings were sufficient to find in favour of the Claimant. However the Court of Appeal decided that a road marking was not part of the physical or structural condition of the roadway and therefore lay outside the Council?s duty of care. The appeal was allowed.

This case suggests that the odds may be somewhat stacked against us, as you would think that advance warning signs are an important part of our decision making process - but all is not lost. Section 39 of the Road traffic Act 1988 makes it a requirement for every local authority to carry out a programme of measures designed to promote road safety. They must carry out studies into accidents arising from the use of vehicles on any road other than trunk roads within their area and, in light of those studies, take such measures as appear appropriate to the authority to prevent such accidents. This will include the construction, improvement, maintenance or repair of roads for which they are the highway authority.

In the case of Lavis v Kent County Council (1992) a motorcyclist suffered severe injuries when he collided with a kerbstone on a sharp bend. The rider claimed negligence against the Council for failure to erect various signs warning motorists of the bend. The Council succeeded initially in having the case dismissed, but the rider appealed. The appeal was successful as the Court of Appeal concluded that the Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984 imposed a duty on the authority to take reasonable care in implementing the requirements of the Act. They had taken no appropriate steps at all.

However, in 1994 the Council faced a similar claim! It was alleged that the authority was responsible for the Claimant?s accident in that it failed to erect a road sign in addition to the double broken white lines already in existence thereby providing warning of an approaching T junction. In the absence of evidence from a competent road engineer, the Claimant (Mr Lavis) failed to establish that any additional warning was necessary. The claimant was found wholly responsible for his accident.

The local authority does have a duty of care to keep our roads in a serviceable and safe condition but it is not always a cut and dried issue. In the majority of cases liability will be strongly, and quite possibly successfully, contested.

If you feel that there is a case to answer and you want to start the ball rolling, make sure you are properly advised ? and be prepared for a long drawn out fight. More importantly don?t be surprised if the end result is rather different to what you expected!


The key area is-

"Section 41 of the Highways Act 1980 imposes a duty on the local authority to maintain a road. Section 58 of the Highways Act 1980 goes on to say that there will be a statutory defence if the Highways Authority has taken ?such care as is in all the circumstances reasonably required?.

All that they will have to show for a claim to fail is that the road has been inspected and records kept within a reasonable time frame, and the term reasonable is open ended, and it has become particularly relevant since the law changed to ensure that roads were kept free of snow and ice.




Can we make this a sticky?
 

Smix

Fcuk Up Fairy
T.C said:
Before jumping on the "lets sue the council" bandwagon, read the following which may clarify why it can be so difficult to make a successful claim against the local authorities.
Totally fair point, but remember that there are some councils who use the following line when telephoned about damage to vehicles due to road conditions -

'send us the bill for the repairs sir as we find it is cheaper to pay people like you than to fix the road'

My father was given this actual response recently when calling about damage to two tyres, wheels and the suspension on his car due to a pothole whilst driving to work. 30mile an hour limit, in traffic, but deep hole.

I am not overly in favour of 'sueing' councils, but they must have a certain amount of responsibility, and as some pay out rather than fix the road, it has to be worth Alan giving them a friendly call?? (although I doubt my fathers call was paricularly friendly!!!!) He may not get the same response, but on the other hand, if he does he saves himself a bundle of ?'s ?????
 

Barrie

Registered User
What is worrying is the fact that a court can't decide the outcome on the first attempt. Why would the decision be different on appeal.:dunno: . Money grabbing lawyers perhaps?
 

T.C

Been there, and had one
Club Sponsor
Barrie said:
What is worrying is the fact that a court can't decide the outcome on the first attempt. Why would the decision be different on appeal.:dunno: . Money grabbing lawyers perhaps?


There can be 101 different reasons, for example new evidence comes to light, or simply a case that a High Court Judge has a better understanding of the complicated nature of the law than a District Judge.

In all the appeals I have been involved in, the decision was made simply because we believed the District Judge had missed or ignored some key points of evidence, and we were proven right in all cases.

In some cases the District Judge will make a ruling based on current case law (which should only be used as a guide), so sometimes it needs to go to appeal in order to get the case law updated which is what we need currently in respect of filtering accidents.

Lawyers don't really want to go to appeal, because they do not get paid until the case is settled, and the appeal process can take several more years. I have not long finished giving evidence at the appeal court on a case i worked on about 12 years ago.
 

Duck n Dive

Rebel without a clue ...
Club Sponsor
Hasn't there just recently been a case reported in MCN where a high court has ruled 100% in favour of a filtering bike??


Reported in MCN 22/2/06

Incident took place in 2003

Rider Jamie McColm

Article says that this three year process ended in an appeal case which now replaces the previous ruling which was always quoted.


I'm also aware of at least one case where a rider succeded in 100% recovery from a filtering accident from the others insurance company without even going to court...... I keep a copy of the letter they used "just in case".

At the time I wondered if they'd settled to avoid going to court and getting a less favourable ruling which might scupper 'em in the future??


All right I know it's a little off topic - but it shows that original decisions aren't always right (although they may be at the time!) and also that if an organisation has a judgement they can refer to which they feel is in their favour that can be a good reason to pay up and avoid court if they think a particular case might compromise them for the future with a new ruling...
 

T.C

Been there, and had one
Club Sponsor
Duck n Dive said:
Hasn't there just recently been a case reported in MCN where a high court has ruled 100% in favour of a filtering bike??


Reported in MCN 22/2/06

Incident took place in 2003

Rider Jamie McColm

Article says that this three year process ended in an appeal case which now replaces the previous ruling which was always quoted.


I'm also aware of at least one case where a rider succeded in 100% recovery from a filtering accident from the others insurance company without even going to court...... I keep a copy of the letter they used "just in case".

At the time I wondered if they'd settled to avoid going to court and getting a less favourable ruling which might scupper 'em in the future??


All right I know it's a little off topic - but it shows that original decisions aren't always right (although they may be at the time!) and also that if an organisation has a judgement they can refer to which they feel is in their favour that can be a good reason to pay up and avoid court if they think a particular case might compromise them for the future with a new ruling...

The article they wrote was bollocks as 7 out of 10 filtering accidents are found in favour of the rider.

What they did not tell you is that each case has to be judged on merit, namely the evidence that is available, therefore you cannot say that every single filtering accident is going to have liability found in favour of the rider just because 1 case won the day.

Every filtering accident I have investigated and reported on has resulted in liability found in favour of the rider, but equally there are cases of filtering accidents where the rider has contributed to his downfall or been the full cause and judgement and liability has been decided appropriately.

The trouble is that for too long all the insurance companies have used Powell v Moody (1966) as their staple defence, but it has been superceded by other cases as the following piece i wrote a while ago should clarify.

Filtering, where do we stand?

One of the main benefits of riding a motorcycle is the fact that unlike our 4 wheeled counterparts, when we come upon lines of stationary traffic, we can still make progress and filter through towards the front of the queue. Filtering has been the cause of many a debate over the years with many arguing about the legitimacy of such an action. So what is the legal position?

Well for those of you who are unsure, let me ask you a question! What is filtering? In simple terms it is an overtaking manoeuvre, and in most cases it is perfectly legal provided:

1 You don?t cross over or straddle a solid centre white line system.
2 You don?t overtake after a ?No Overtaking? sign.
3 You do not overtake the lead vehicle within the confines of the zigzags of a pedestrian/pelican crossing as it may have stopped to allow pedestrians to cross.
4 No danger is caused to other road users and no vehicle is caused to alter course or speed.

So in short, providing those 4 conditions are complied with then there shouldn?t be a problem, however when it comes to accidents, civil liability can paint a somewhat different picture.

When a motorcyclist is involved in a filtering accident, most insurance companies will try and use the case law of Powell v Moody which dates back to 1966 to mitigate their losses. In that case a motorcyclist was overtaking a line of stationary traffic and was found to be 80% to blame when he hit a car which was ?inching out? into the carriageway after a milk tanker signalled to him to pull out. The court felt that the motorcyclist was undertaking an ?operation? which is fraught with great hazard and which needed to be carried out with great care.

In the case of Clarke v Whinchurch in 1969, an overtaking motorcyclist (Moped) in similar circumstances was found to be 100% to blame. The judge ruled that he (the motorcyclist) should have realised something was happening up ahead when a bus in a line of slow moving traffic stopped to let a vehicle out from a side road on his left. The car came out quite slowly in front of the bus and was hit by the moped. (f you are ever involved in a filtering accident, you probably won?t want to quote this case to the other side).

In more recent cases (Leeson v Bevis Transport 1972) the motorcycle and emerging vehicle were found equally responsible. The court said that the motorcyclist did nothing wrong in overtaking the line of stationary vehicles, but needed to keep an effective lookout, whilst the van driver should have been aware of the possibility of vehicles overtaking in this way.

The most recent case of this kind was in 1980 in the case of Worsford v Howe. In this instance the motorcyclist was in a separate lane intended for vehicles turning right, when he was hit by a car which was intending to cross both lanes of traffic and turn right. The court found once again that both rider and driver were equally to blame and settled 50/50.

In filtering cases, the court will when deciding who is to blame will look at:

1 The speed and position of the motorcycle in the road.
2 Whether the stream of traffic was stationary or moving.
3 How fast the other vehicle emerged from the side road or from the line of traffic.

Filtering is an accepted and legitimate practice, and unless there is a case of dangerous or careless driving to answer, or one of the 4 conditions mentioned previously have been breached, then it is very rare that a Police prosecution will follow, but in terms of a civil action, then this is where the real headache can begin.

As it stands at the moment, although some of the most recent cases have found both parties equally responsible, and in some cases they courts have found 100% in favour of the motorcyclist, you have to bear in mind that you could still end up bearing 80% or even 100% of the blame, simply because as the case law stands at the moment, you will probably not recover your damages in full.

So to sum up, filtering in most cases is perfectly legal, is accepted as being a benefit of riding a motorcycle and is something that just about every rider has done at some stage without any problems, but, should you be unfortunate to have a collision whilst filtering, then just be aware of the pitfalls you are likely to encounter until such time as current case law is updated.

The 72 case is the most recent case law, but even that is ignored by the majority of insurers, so it really needs someone brave enough and who has been involved in such a crash to run it through to the High Court in order to get the case law updated, but even then, case law is simply a guide, the outcome is still determined by the evidence and facts available.
 

Duck n Dive

Rebel without a clue ...
Club Sponsor
Thanks for the detail.. appreciated.....

I thought what MCN were saying was that this particular case was now the "reference case law".....????

If that's not so what on earth was the point of their story?? ....
 

T.C

Been there, and had one
Club Sponsor
Duck n Dive said:
Thanks for the detail.. appreciated.....

I thought what MCN were saying was that this particular case was now the "reference case law".....????

If that's not so what on earth was the point of their story?? ....

It is not case law, it was simply a filtering case where the rider won 100% liability in his favour. Something that happens every week! :bang:
 
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