• Welcome to the new B.I.R.D. Forum. Please be sure to read the "New Member / New Registered ? Please Read" thread in the Coffee Shop. This contains some important information. To become a full member ( £5.90 a year ) simply click on your user name near the top on the right I hope you enjoy the new site ................ Jaws ( John )

The legality of HID Units

B

Barry-

Black is where its at
So here goes one to test the water hope it is relevant to this section, it is a worry for me currently.

One of my next upgrades for my bike will be to look at a HID upgrade, i understand that it is not enough for the bulb to be "e" marked but that the bulb in its unit needs to be also? That even if my bike passes an MOT with an "illegal unit" installed my insurer can negate my insurance and even a police officer can (although unlikely) arrest me for driving without valid insurance?

How much of this is truth if any?
What sort of common sense approach might one take?
What can i look for on a website that reassures me that what i am buying is legal?

A PS moment,
These things carry a lot of electricity Jaws website indicates 23000 volts, this must cause safety concerns to well meaning members of the public and emergency services if they were to touch the unit there are sure to be legal consequences to that?
 
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O

O_Ghost

Registered User
One for me I think.. I will check Construction and Use, but it is something that comes up, and we have done testing on aftermarket car HID systems over the years.

I will answer this later on after I've checked the facts :)
 
T.C

T.C

Been there, and had one
Club Sponsor
Barry- said:
That even if my bike passes an MOT with an "illegal unit" installed my insurer can negate my insurance and even a police officer can (although unlikely) arrest me for driving without valid insurance?
Click to expand...

O-Ghost's expertise on the use of the conversion and legality is going to be far better than mine (Thanks for taking this one John) but in respect of the validity of your insurance, there are a couple of issues to consider or take into account.

Firstly, the insurance company will need to specify within the policy document that any modification will negate your insurance, and usually it is only performance modifications that is likely to have a bearing.

However, even if they do specify it, in the case that you had a crash, it would have to be proved that the modification directly contributed towards the cause of that crash. Even if they were able to do that, it does not detract from causation if the third party was at fault, however they may use the argument that the third party was for example blinded by the light or dazzled as an argument for contributory negligence thereby allowing them to negotiate a discount on the settlement.

The third point is that it should not detract from the fact that they would still be required to provide third party cover, unless they had previously written to you advising that your cover was to be withdrawn for whatever reason, but it may be their get out clause for not covering repairs to your bike in the event that you had comprehensive cover.

Hope that makes sense?
 
B

Barry-

Black is where its at
Yes it does, i must confess i sit here now with my insurance cover 3 months old and have not as yet read the small print, i guess it is possible that buried within that wall of text is a clause on unlawful upgrades of even a non performance nature might cause me issues. Out of interest i shall take a look tonight.
 
O

O_Ghost

Registered User
I'll keep furtling, but the only requirement I've confirmed is that the bulb should be 'e' or 'E' marked. The standard lens and reflector unit will be approved.

It would take a sharp eyed VI or Policeman to spot the fact that the bulb wasn't marked - in fact the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulation doesn't give a value for lighting, only that it is 'sufficient' for vehicles first used after 1986.

I don't know if the units offered have an approval mark but in my experience they are approved and marked accordingly.

As for the high Voltage parts, they should be clearly marked and it's no different to ignition systems, fuel and other dangerous parts - more one for Tony that. I would expect the unit to be safe in IT'S NORMAL CONDITION OF USE. In other words, after an accident or during servicing, only a suitably qualified person should be involved with the vehicle.

I hope this helps
 
B

Barry-

Black is where its at
Thanks for that it looks to me that if i notify my insurance company that i have installed them, and i use a good quality product as well as take a little more caution over beam alignment i should be ok which seems to be the experience of most motorcyclists.

The accidental aspect came about from a post i read whilst looking at the implications of a HID is that in the event of an accident the manufacturers build into these high voltage systems cut off's something that after market kits are unlikely to provide. And could lead you open to being sued if say a person tried to pick up the bike and the hid system was somehow at fault for a serious incident with that person, that also in such a circumstance your insurer may run a mile.
 
Jaws

Jaws

Corporal CockUp
Staff member
Moderator
Club Sponsor
And that is one for me I think
Yes, there are extremely high voltages used but at worst it would make someones hair stand up and make them jump a bit, as there is virtually no current present..
 
O

O_Ghost

Registered User
It'd certainly make you jump and could be a risk if you had a dicky ticker I suppose. No more than the flash unit in a camera[1] and I would think the charge would dissipate rapidly after the power was interrupted

[1] A slightly deranged friend was pulling a flash unit to pieces a few years ago and apparently went 'urgh' and was out cold for 10 minutes.
 
N

Newbird

Guest
Stun guns & tasers carry about 50k, as John said virtually no current. It would sting a bit though :)
 
B

Boggymarsh

Guest
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B

Boggymarsh

Guest
This is where the area remains grey as some vehicles are exempt the self levelling device.
 
T.C

T.C

Been there, and had one
Club Sponsor
Boggymarsh said:
This is where the area remains grey as some vehicles are exempt the self levelling device.
Click to expand...

If there is a possibility that the HID units can give a kick (albeit a mild one) after a crash or for any other reason, then there is the possibility that the rider or owner could find themselves being prosecuted for using a vehicle in a dangerous condition.

Not saying its right or is going to happen, but it is the sort of thing some jobsworth copper might enjoy having a go at.

There are also issues if the replacement lights caused excess dazzle, again this could be regarded as dangerous condition, but it is a grey area, and I think that unless a full detailed vehicle examination took place it would be difficult to prove.
 
O

O_Ghost

Registered User
How does that differ from burning yourself on a hot exhaust, getting a belt off the HT system or chopping fingers off in the chain T.C.? As for dazzle, they could be photometrically tested - there used to be a maximum for cars in ECE 48 of something like 200,000 Candela or something. Need to check.

Boggy, regarding levelling systems they are not actually exempt, more that they meet the requirements without the need for a levelling device - a 2 seat car with stiff suspension and little load space won't change much in pitch in any standard condition. For info, we measure the beam cut off under a series load conditions, so that would be Driver, Driver and Front Passenger, All seats occupied, All seats + full luggage and Driver only with full luggage. The car is rolled back wards and forward and bounced 4 times on each corner in each condition before the measurement is taken. The cutoff must remain within a tolerance of the declared % value as marked on the light or vehicle. The scary thing is that I remembered all that... As for bikes I will have to check the relevant Directive to confirm and I'm not in work for a week or so. We also have an ex VOSA MoT expert as well so I can ask him for the MoT angle.

Which bikes have HID as standard?
 
T.C

T.C

Been there, and had one
Club Sponsor
O_Ghost said:
How does that differ from burning yourself on a hot exhaust, getting a belt off the HT system or chopping fingers off in the chain T.C.? As for dazzle, they could be photometrically tested - there used to be a maximum for cars in ECE 48 of something like 200,000 Candela or something. Need to check.

Boggy, regarding levelling systems they are not actually exempt, more that they meet the requirements without the need for a levelling device - a 2 seat car with stiff suspension and little load space won't change much in pitch in any standard condition. For info, we measure the beam cut off under a series load conditions, so that would be Driver, Driver and Front Passenger, All seats occupied, All seats + full luggage and Driver only with full luggage. The car is rolled back wards and forward and bounced 4 times on each corner in each condition before the measurement is taken. The cutoff must remain within a tolerance of the declared % value as marked on the light or vehicle. The scary thing is that I remembered all that... As for bikes I will have to check the relevant Directive to confirm and I'm not in work for a week or so. We also have an ex VOSA MoT expert as well so I can ask him for the MoT angle.

Which bikes have HID as standard?
Click to expand...

I was not disagreeing, I was simply playing devils advocate, as I know some coppers will try it on, particularly those who think they know the construction and use regs and road traffic act verbatim, and there are those that will take the view that if even a mild injury can be sustained, or the lights have allegedly dazzled, they will go for it rather than thinking it through logically.
 
silverfox.xx

silverfox.xx

quocunque jeceris stabit
HID's are not a motorcycle MOT failure, providing they pass the beam test. This does not deem them legal..... I await to be shot down. However this information was current July 2012 and may not now be current.

LED replacement bulbs - are OK but at least half of the LEDs must illuminate . If not the lamp will fail for being "so damaged or deteriorated that its function is impaired".

Combination rear lamps - these are the lamps which at the rear do away with the indicators . The rear red lamp then flashes orange on the left or right hand side when the indicators are on. This is a MoT fail and indeed illegal as for example half of the stop or tail light goes out when the indicators are switched on.
As far as I am aware these aftermarket lamps are not marked as such !

Flashing stop lamps - I have not seen these yet but when the rear brake light comes on it flashes quickly and then the rate slows to a solid light. These do not emit a steady light and are therefore a FAIL . Steady flashing lights for cars can be permitted but these are subject to strict type approval.

HID headlamps - If you fit a HID bulb kit to an existing lens and reflector then they are considered not to be legal as the way the light emits from the HID bulb is not compatible with the reflector and lens. You need to fit the HID headlamp with the HID bulb although " the lamp may still be required to have some form of self levelling system to be legal "

HOWEVER there is a difference between "legal" and passing a MoT and in either case there are no "reasons for rejection " in the testers manual in respect of HID headlamps providing of course the beam test is passed. So you may pass the MoT but the Police can take the bike off the road.

IF this info is incorrect, I'll remove it rather than leave it for others to waste time trolling though it.

That said, I'll leave my HID's in as they do assist in visibility for other road users to see me..... more now cars are using daylight running lamps. I consider my life more important than a few quid fine.
 
5

57grant

Registered User
For what its worth, I have declared my HID fitment to my insurer Aviva and they have no problem with it. Over the last 36 years biking I have had 3 side turning pullout accidents. Since HID 6 years ago none. Not statistically valid but my personal belief is that it is one of the best safety upgrades you can fit, much better than lurid crappy jackets which are frequently not worn even if you own one.

I have never had a problem with MOT and discussed the issue with the MOT tester. He had received no official advice on HID lights. I looked with him at the MOT beam testing device and can confirm that the very well designed post 2002 flat beam unit gives a crystal clear cut out of the beam pattern with no appreciable beam scatter and does not dazzle oncoming motorists if carefully set up. I have slimlind ballasts with 55 w units that produce as much light as circa 600 watt zenon bulbs. Happy to demonstrate to anyone who is willing to ride to west Yorkshire - Sowerby bridge who is thinking of buying a set

Good luck grant 07876251906 mobile
 
silverfox.xx

silverfox.xx

quocunque jeceris stabit
HID, and for 2 up I've fitted a beam height adjuster extension to the hidden knob, making it a simple easy way of adjustment. Cost about a Fiver.
 
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