• Welcome to the new B.I.R.D. Forum. Please be sure to read the "New Member / New Registered ? Please Read" thread in the Coffee Shop. This contains some important information. To become a full member ( £5.90 a year ) simply click on your user name near the top on the right I hope you enjoy the new site ................ Jaws ( John )

End of an Era....Perhaps.

  • Thread starter Gerrard
  • Start date
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Gerrard

Guest
Hi Guys.
Just been reading the BLACKBIRD V BLADE posts which I found very pertinant, and I see the reasons why a few peeps are drifting towards Blades - better handling and less weight seem the biggest comments.
As we all know sports bikes of today become Sports/Tourer/All-rounders after about 3 years when the new models arrive. This has happened from as far back as the Z1 through to the GPZ900, GSX1100, and on to the Fireblade and ZX9, and to me the best of the bunch has been the Fireblade and the ZX9 which in my opinion are good allrounders.
From 2003 all the sports bikes have come along with no grab rails and such a small pillion seat that once they have been used as a sports bike one up, they will be left languishing in garages 'cos they are just not pillion friendly.
In fact most people who might be buying a 3 year old bike to use for a Sports Tourer will be totally put off. The options left are all heavyweights - BMWs, Pans, FJ1200s, Blackbirds Busas and the new ZZ1400.
I think the manufactures have been a bit short-sighted over this, for example who is going to buy a ZX10 and use it as an all rounder? Not me! Or a K5 or an R1?

So answer me this:-
If Rossi had a grab rail on his bike would he lose the Moto GP Championship?
Naaaaaah ...it would take a bit more than that... (and thats not a comment you might expect from a non-Rossiite!!)

I think that this year or next will see a glut of top sports bikes with no home to go to - poor things! :B
Zippo
 
B

BlackBirdBaz

Guest
Have you also noticed a glut of cruiser / tourers on the roads the last year or so ?

Maybe its an indication of changes to come in the future, the more that are ridden the more that will be sold and fewer sprots bikes will be found in showrooms. I know we all go there, but does anyone really keep a sports bike for years and years ? I seem to last about a year and move on, The Bird is another story, I can see me keeping it for at least 3 years, arthritis permitting :bow:
 

Oldbull

Registered User
I think its a UK thing with regards to the sportsbikes but definitley true for 90% of sportbike buyers over here.A lot is down to the age group that the market is aimed at as well.. I think we will see a change soon tho due to the roads in general. It is almost impossible to get out the way and have a 'scratch' on your sportsbike nowadays.. soon be illegal to drive alltogether over here.:tosser:
The kids will end up stunting on them in car parks like they do in the states..
 

Supabird1100

Registered User
BlackBirdBaz said:
Have you also noticed a glut of cruiser / tourers on the roads the last year or so ?

Also seen the amount of Supermoto's and big trails bikes that seem to be appearing in ever increasing numbers ?? The era of the out-and-out sports bike does seem to be coming to an end.
 

Codbasher

Registered User
While was driving the Highways and By ways of this country between Xmas and New Year I was amazed at the number of Deuvilles that were on the road, seem to be a popular winter bike.

Have seen a couple of Blackbirds as well :yo:
 
R

Rods

Guest
Codbasher said:
While was driving the Highways and By ways of this country between Xmas and New Year I was amazed at the number of Deuvilles that were on the road, seem to be a popular winter bike.
or that their owners are only willing to ride them in the hours of darkness to avoid their secret getting outh1t1t
 
R

roXXo

Guest
Graphite.ES said:
Hi Guys.
Just been reading the BLACKBIRD V BLADE posts which I found very pertinant, and I see the reasons why a few peeps are drifting towards Blades - better handling and less weight seem the biggest comments.
As we all know sports bikes of today become Sports/Tourer/All-rounders after about 3 years when the new models arrive. This has happened from as far back as the Z1 through to the GPZ900, GSX1100, and on to the Fireblade and ZX9, and to me the best of the bunch has been the Fireblade and the ZX9 which in my opinion are good allrounders.
From 2003 all the sports bikes have come along with no grab rails and such a small pillion seat that once they have been used as a sports bike one up, they will be left languishing in garages 'cos they are just not pillion friendly.
In fact most people who might be buying a 3 year old bike to use for a Sports Tourer will be totally put off. The options left are all heavyweights - BMWs, Pans, FJ1200s, Blackbirds Busas and the new ZZ1400.
I think the manufactures have been a bit short-sighted over this, for example who is going to buy a ZX10 and use it as an all rounder? Not me! Or a K5 or an R1?

So answer me this:-
If Rossi had a grab rail on his bike would he lose the Moto GP Championship?
Naaaaaah ...it would take a bit more than that... (and thats not a comment you might expect from a non-Rossiite!!)

I think that this year or next will see a glut of top sports bikes with no home to go to - poor things! :B
Zippo
Good point, well put.
 
R

roXXo

Guest
Oldbull said:
I think its a UK thing with regards to the sportsbikes but definitley true for 90% of sportbike buyers over here.A lot is down to the age group that the market is aimed at as well.. I think we will see a change soon tho due to the roads in general. It is almost impossible to get out the way and have a 'scratch' on your sportsbike nowadays.. soon be illegal to drive alltogether over here.:tosser:
The kids will end up stunting on them in car parks like they do in the states..
There are still plenty of roads to have fun on a sports bike and the increasing choice of track day venues means there will still be a market for sports bikes.
I really enjoy my Blade but when I take my eldest son's R6 out, I really enjoy that. I could really be tempted to go down the 600 route.

The young at heart will still want to ride bikes similar to those that they see racing. Always been the same since motorcycle competition began.
There was a spell after the 2nd WW when a lot of folk rode motorcycles as cheap transport, not necessarily interested in motorbikes, but there has always been an element who wanted a more sporting mount and the manufacturers have always provided a "racier" model.

In my 31 bike, motorcycling history, I have had more sports bikes than any other style.
Just shows how shallow and gullible I am.
:beer:
 

Pugwash

Registered User
Read Only
I think I'd struggle to go back to a 600. My '96 CBR6 used to ran out of steam at 100mph, whereas the BB feels like it's got a big gob of power still untapped.
 
D

D.S.

Guest
Graphite.ES said:
Hi Guys.
Just been reading the BLACKBIRD V BLADE posts which I found very pertinant, and I see the reasons why a few peeps are drifting towards Blades - better handling and less weight seem the biggest comments.
As we all know sports bikes of today become Sports/Tourer/All-rounders after about 3 years when the new models arrive. This has happened from as far back as the Z1 through to the GPZ900, GSX1100, and on to the Fireblade and ZX9, and to me the best of the bunch has been the Fireblade and the ZX9 which in my opinion are good allrounders.
From 2003 all the sports bikes have come along with no grab rails and such a small pillion seat that once they have been used as a sports bike one up, they will be left languishing in garages 'cos they are just not pillion friendly.
In fact most people who might be buying a 3 year old bike to use for a Sports Tourer will be totally put off. The options left are all heavyweights - BMWs, Pans, FJ1200s, Blackbirds Busas and the new ZZ1400.
I think the manufactures have been a bit short-sighted over this, for example who is going to buy a ZX10 and use it as an all rounder? Not me! Or a K5 or an R1?

So answer me this:-
If Rossi had a grab rail on his bike would he lose the Moto GP Championship?
Naaaaaah ...it would take a bit more than that... (and thats not a comment you might expect from a non-Rossiite!!)

I think that this year or next will see a glut of top sports bikes with no home to go to - poor things! :B
Zippo

I don't think the manufacturers have been shortsighted, afterall take a look at K5 Gixer 1000 sales last year and K4 750 sales in 2004. They'll still sell in the UK like hot cakes. Wanna bet the K6 Gixer 1000, K6 750 and 600's are in the top 10 2006/2007 sales?
However I do agree that sports bikes are becoming more focused and why not? My view is that sports bikes belong on the track predominantly and anyone buying one does so being fully aware of this and has no intention of using one as an all rounder. Besides there are only a few "true all rounders" anyway (BMW GS range and the KTM Adventure range).
Your point is kinda valid mate, but it'll only effect those trying to sell a used "sports bike" as anything else other than a "sports bike" and that won't be the manufacturer.
I think manufacturers are getting better at trying to appeal to a wider spectrum of riders, whilst catering for those requiring very focused machines which is great for us as riders, especially those of us who enjoy a variety of riding desciplines.
 
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Oldbull

Registered User
Hehe not quite 31 bikes for me Rox but most of mine have been sports oriented as well..good point tho about yesterdays sportsbike is tomorrows tourer ..but somehow I cant see many people doing europe in a few years time on this years R6, blade or gixer thou..etc for the simple reason of physical size, practibillity etc as compared to yesterdays sportsbike of today ie Bird, Busa etc..dont get me wrong tho mate, the new stuff is drop dead gorgeous and Id would have any of them in a heart beat ..my point being that todays sports bike are out and out sports and not so much all rounders like they were a few years back..

Im probably a little disheartened with roadriding as well but I dont believe you can have the same fun as you could before, too much traffic, camera's etc.
yeah you can do it but you have to be out in the stix or stuck to the same place /route all the time which kinda takes away from your freedom if you get my drift..
Im a trackday addict myself mate, been doing it for the last 7/8years, in fact I just bought another bike, crashed CBR600 2001 model which Im currently doing for the track, and I fully aggree that thats the place to have yor sports bike kicks. While Im in doom and gloom mode tho, dont think that the trackday isnt going to get governed in the not to near future, you will need tax,test, liceince, insurance etc thats if they havent been banned alltogether..
Phil at tracktime promotions was one of the first event organisers if not THE first and this year he has packed it all in due to the ever increasing pressures from government with insurance liabillities etc etc and I personally dont think that they will be around as we know them for much longer as well...

Soon We are going to have the best ever sports bikes that we have seen/ride available to us and we are gonna end up with no where to go on em ...Hope Im wrong but I cant see it ..

Right, Im off to throw myself of a bridge :violin:
:p
 
G

Gerrard

Guest
Era

DIRTY SANCHEZ said:
I don't think the manufacturers have been shortsighted, afterall take a look at K5 Gixer 1000 sales last year and K4 750 sales in 2004. They'll still sell in the UK like hot cakes. Wanna bet the K6 Gixer 1000, K6 750 and 600's are in the top 10 2006/2007 sales?
However I do agree that sports bikes are becoming more focused and why not? My view is that sports bikes belong on the track predominantly and anyone buying one does so being fully aware of this and has no intention of using one as an all rounder. Besides there are only a few "true all rounders" anyway (BMW GS range and the KTM Adventure range).
Your point is kinda valid mate, but it'll only effect those trying to sell a used "sports bike" as anything else other than a "sports bike" and that won't be the manufacturer.
I think manufacturers are getting better at trying to appeal to a wider spectrum of riders, whilst catering for those requiring very focused machines which is great for us as riders, especially those of us who enjoy a variety of riding desciplines.

Hi DS.
I quite agree with you Joe about the K5 1000 and the 750, brilliant bikes but they are just track focused.
I still think the older sports bike has matured (a bit like a good wine!) and even though it was not built as an all rounder it sort of turned into one by default, and has almost had a second life - unlike the sports bikes of today which to me have only one use.
I have only sat on a KTMS and not ridden one but I would still rather do a 1000 mile on a Blade or ZX9 than one of those, but I suppose we all like what we like, if we were all the same there would only be one bike manufacturer!

PS. Give us a shout on your next track day.... talk soon :beer:
PPS. Went to ECI in M?laga but the reckon they only sell tickets for the Spanish GPs and none for Mugello nor anywhere else so will be buying them from the GPTicket shop website.
Paul
 
D

D.S.

Guest
Graphite.ES said:
Hi DS.
I quite agree with you Joe about the K5 1000 and the 750, brilliant bikes but they are just track focused.
I still think the older sports bike has matured (a bit like a good wine!) and even though it was not built as an all rounder it sort of turned into one by default, and has almost had a second life - unlike the sports bikes of today which to me have only one use.
I have only sat on a KTMS and not ridden one but I would still rather do a 1000 mile on a Blade or ZX9 than one of those, but I suppose we all like what we like, if we were all the same there would only be one bike manufacturer!

PS. Give us a shout on your next track day.... talk soon :beer:
PPS. Went to ECI in M?laga but the reckon they only sell tickets for the Spanish GPs and none for Mugello nor anywhere else so will be buying them from the GPTicket shop website.
Paul

Hola Paul,
I agree with you on the above. but disagree with your orignal point which was that "manufactures have been a bit short-sighted". It's not the manufacturers problem it's a problem for those that want to purchase a sports bike in 3/4 years time to use an an all rounder/tourer. Most manufacturers now produce a bike to do just that, so if you think about it's a long term sales statergy, i.e. "All rounder Sir ? We do one of those", "Sports bike Sir? come this way"

Oldbull, if you haven't chucked yourself of that bridge yet then don't. I only ever did one track day with Tracktime and one was enough for me and my mates. Phil has little idea how to run a business and has the PR skills of charging rhino (not just my view mate, check out Visordown.com), so it's no surprise he's chucked in the towell.
I agree, Government legislation may get tougher, but we're talking Green Lanes, By-Ways, etc here, afterall these are private tracks. Anyway, European track days are the way forward.
 

Oldbull

Registered User
DIRTY SANCHEZ said:
Oldbull, if you haven't chucked yourself of that bridge yet then don't. I only ever did one track day with Tracktime and one was enough for me and my mates. Phil has little idea how to run a business and has the PR skills of charging rhino (not just my view mate, check out Visordown.com), so it's no surprise he's chucked in the towell.
I agree, Government legislation may get tougher, but we're talking Green Lanes, By-Ways, etc here, afterall these are private tracks. Anyway, European track days are the way forward.
Haha I know where your comming from DS with regard to Phils PR skills and especially the last couple of seasons the presure was really showing on him.
The early days he wasnt like that mate but as we were pretty regular with his outfit I/ we did see a change in him for the worse and can fully understand the impression he gave to people..
Anywho, I dont want to bang anyones drum here but in his favour like I said, he was THE first to bring trackdays to the masses as we know them and allso if it wasnt for him and some BMF backing we would have been paying ?30 for an ECU liceince last year, it was HIS campaigning that got it stopped ... sod it , Ill copy paste the email I /we had off him at xmas..



Greetings to you all.
Many thanks to all those who sent Debbie & I messages after the last email-shot (we had more than we could have dreamed of and far too many to reply to individually).
I'm sure that most of you will get bored with this email before the end, however, we have had many emails and phone calls since sending out our last email, from people asking "WHY". Well the truth will out.

The main reason for giving up the Track Days is that, some years ago one of my customers fell off after running into the back of another rider. The person that fell off then tried to pursue me for compensation.
When this claim finally went away (after more than 3 years), I did say that if anyone else tried to make a claim against me, I would shut the company down. In September the inevitable solicitors letter landed on my desk and the second claim is now being investigated.
I know that we live in a Claims Culture but it's about time that people realised that sometimes the blame lies with themselves and you can't always make someone else pay for your own or their own mistakes.
I myself have had two major offs at the track which could be blamed on others, one at Donington in 95 which resulted in 5 broken ribs, a broken arm & collar bone plus concussion. Then in 96 at Mallory I ended up with a shattered sternum (this breaks all of your ribs apart from the floating one) another broken collar bone and damage to my right leg which left the doctors considering amputation. Having a different mind-set to some of my customers of late, I knew that I may fall off and get hurt but I also knew that I couldn't get the same buzz anywhere else, so I just accepted the risk.

Some months ago Jamie Whitham said in the MCN that it would be the threat of claims that would kill the track day business and how right he is. In the same publication on a different occasion you had that much respected (and I mean that, as Top Gear is one of my favourite shows) journalist Richard Hammond stating that if the organiser cocks things up, they're fair game for a claim. I take it that this is in view of his vast experience of bike track days, or as a presenter of a TV show, whereby the only people on track are the film crew and him. Perhaps he forgot to mention "THE ORGANISER IS NOT THE ONE WHO TWISTS THE THROTTLE" but hey, we all know how journalist think "Why let the truth get in the way of a good story or pay packet"

Then you have the power of the internet and the various forums (visor down & throttle monkeys to name 2). How they can do things better than me and what they think of me or my Rider Brief (and how they are unable to measure time, as the brief never lasted more than 22 minutes, unless due to interruptions from the knobs who forget to switch off their phones), I can't stand doing the briefs but if I didn't, I wonder how many more people would try and make a claim. Well I really don't give a dam what they think of me but I do take exception when they start getting personal with my family or staff. Now that we're not going to be running track days, I wonder how many of those people on these web sites that tell me how to run my business are going to have the balls to put their house on the line for a bunch of belly aching babies, cause if any of them want to, I'll happily sell them the rights to my trading name. May I suggest that before you pick up the phone consider this; I turned over nearly half a million pounds this season and haven't got enough left in the bank to pay me or Debbie for December without going overdrawn (this is after we refunded everyone we could).
I don't expect to be inundated with potential buyers from either of the above forums (but it would be nice to be wrong).
The same two web sites are always belly aching about one mans attempts at global dominance, with that in mind, may I suggest that you consider using Mark from No Limits, as I'm told that they run things pretty much the same as us and I know for a fact that they took most of the dates that I released when I decided to pack it all in.
They can be contacted on 07000 600 750 (and no, it's not a mobile).

Another reason why it was easy to walk away is that in meeting some truly wonderful people, I've also encountered some who fit into other categories "Would you want to deal with these people if you didn't need too"
The likes of two people from the ACU trying to instigate I D Cards so that they could screw money out of track day riders, why ?, because they can. I fought for nearly two years to make this go away, as I saw it as a guarantee that it would kill track days.

You have members of The Association of Track Day Operators (ATDO) trying to bring in rulings about insurance (which very nearly closed down the track day business) and to put the records straight "I was the only Bike Track Day Organiser at the first meeting, consequently I was the only Founder Member on the bike side of things. Those that state anything other than this will of course be able to prove me wrong by showing me their name on the minutes.
The reason I resigned as a Director of ATDO was that I was always questioning some of the other directors motives and I could never shake the feeling that deals were being done outside of the remit of the organisation.
Perhaps someone may raise a question along the lines of; Now that ATDO is no longer seen to be an active body, what's going to happen with the many thousands of pounds in the bank account, cause I could sure do with a few quid.

Then the nonsense about you must hold a full unrestricted bike licence at Brands, Cadwell, Oulton & Snetterton initially and then at most other circuits of late, Why ?, well that depends on the organiser, you see if you book direct with some of the circuits it's not really an issue as they have one rule for me the independent and one rule for themselves (now that would be an interesting court case if something were to happen on one of there days and the person didn't have a full unrestricted licence).
Having said that, I take great pride in knowing that I managed to bend and even ignore the rules with a number of the younger riders. The two that give me the greatest sense of satisfaction are Luke Hinton & Joe Burns and it will be interesting to watch what these two teenagers achieve in years to come.

You have the appalling way in which the circuit owners and operators treat us the track day organiser (with the exception of Richard from Anglesey).
A few points in question are; the Northern Circuit where the staff at ground level are truly wonderful but the man who owns the circuit has never seen fit to shake my hand (even though I've spent around 200k with him and when we first started going there, it was difficult to get a sea gull to land, never mind getting riders to come to the circuit) but hey, how quickly do we forget.
I have had to fight with the circuits because they see fit to pay the marshals peanuts but they want top dollar from the organiser, consequently some of the marshals are younger/older than you would expect and have no sense of urgency about them, thus losing you the person who pays their wages, precious track time. Another observation is that the average value of the bikes on track is about 5k, the average value of the recovery vehicles is about a fifth of this. It may not be of consequence to you now but just think about it when your in an ambulance on your way to the med centre and your bike is being thrown into or onto the back of something that isn't worth what your wheels are.
Bare in mind that I designed a machine for getting rid of frost & ice off the circuits nearly ten years ago (at a cost to the circuits of ?8,000.00) and not one circuit was interested in it. You see, they really don't care if you can't get out, as they have already had the organisers money and if the day is cancelled, it's not their problem but the organisers.
Some of you who were booked on to the Donington event on the 3rd of October will know this first hand. All of my customers have been refunded for this event, however, I was assured that my contact at Donington would ring me last Tuesday (13th Dec) and let me know if I would get my deposit (?4,000.00 + vat) refunded, which means that me & Debbie will be able to draw a wage this month, so that we can do some Christmas shopping, Guess What? I'm still waiting for a phone call.
I know that they won't even want to discuss the out of pocket expenses involved in processing the bookings and then refunding everyone after the event was cancelled (and by the way, many thanks to the emailer who let me know about the situation. It staggers me that one of my customers told me and not the circuit)
I hope it doesn't lead to it, but perhaps I may need to enter into a legal battle over breach of contract, as they are the ones who forgot to tell me that my customers would not have use of the Pit Garages (as stated on my contract).
If any of those many customers we have in the legal world, wish to take on the case, please give me a ring.

I'm forever being told that the circuits must really look after us because of how much we spend with them, well let me make it perfectly clear that in spending well over 2 million pounds at the Brands Hatch group of circuits, I have never had so much a free pass for the world superbikes.
What about me sending the circuit staff stuff out at Christmas as a way of saying thank you and to try and get the better dates.
I don't suppose you'll be surprised to find out that I have yet to receive ONE PRESENT from any of the circuit owners (except for a raffle prize for one of our many fund raising exercises) and that's in 13 years, spending more than 5 million pounds on track hire. I've just sent out parcels to 18 of my clients (for another company I run) as a way of saying thank you for your support and I hope we can service your future needs. Needless to say, I don't think Santa will be calling with shed loads of goodies from the circuits.
Well here's a bit of free advice. 68% of all customers move on because of apathy.
If any of the circuit owners wish to ring me for an explanation, I'll be happy to discuss the matter but please bare in mind that I now charge out at ?400 + vat per day for my advice.

Then you get the weekly & monthly motorcycling press phoning you up asking if they can have free places for a bit of a mention in the next issue. Well the truth is that I'm one of the very few that insisted that they are the people who should be paying, as they have more funds available than the vast majority of my non press customers and more often than not they took the Mickey and expected things that no one else would dare ask for.
Perhaps you should be thinking why the EMAP Group (MCN + others) are one of the best performing companies on the stock market and then consider why the remaining organisers should think about staying in the business when the cost of advertising and circuits is going up but the customers want to pay less and they are keen to try and screw you if they fall off.

What about the Bike / Tyre / Parts / Spares Manufacturers & Importers (Ducati, Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Triumph & Yamaha), well they're trying to get everything for nothing. Think about this; remove the track day market from the above and with the exception of Triumph you'll end up with a few Italian & Japanese importers, making a few redundancy's, so it's about time they got off there high horses and realised that if it wasn't for the likes of me, they would have disappeared up their own import licence of few years ago. You see they think that everyone out there buys a bike cause some famous blokes being paid millions. The fact is that since the advent of track days, people are able to feel for themselves "What It's All About".

I have always had to defend the argument of "Who invented Track Days". The fact is that people were hiring race tracks for many years before I came on the scene but I defy anybody to come up with evidence that they invented the terminology.
Fact; I was made redundant at 08.50 hrs on the 18th June 1992 and decided to set up a Track Day business.
Fact; the terms Track Day & Track Time were born that day (if only I'd Copy Written them)
Fact; the first ever official Track Day was at Mallory Park on the 5th November 1992

With all this in mind, I have been advised to write a book about things that have happened so far in my life. The person who advised me to write it, reckons that those who don't like me will buy it to see if they are mentioned and those who do like me will buy it for the memories. ONLY TIME WILL TELL.

Told you it would be boring!!!

Our very best wishes go to everyone (without exception)

Phil & Debbie


 
D

D.S.

Guest
lumpy said:
Britain is part of Europe!!!!:lol:

I bow to your superior geographical knowledge Yoda oh wise one :bow:
I meant mainland Europe of course :rolleyes:

Interesting post Oldbull. If ya looking for a new company to use you can do a lot worse than Focused Events http://www.focusedevents.com/
or
http://www.motorcyclefolly.co.uk/

attachment.php


Not so good at Brands yesterday though! 8ree!
 
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Oldbull

Registered User
Hehe yeah, reading Phils mail again I think he wants to come and Join me on the bridge lol..
We have been with focused events a few times,but I havent heard of the the other one, thanks DS..
btw the european thing has got my taste buds going :lick:

toyed with it a few times but never followed it through will have to have another look into it mate :p
 
S

skiers

Guest
Pugwash said:
I think I'd struggle to go back to a 600. My '96 CBR6 used to ran out of steam at 100mph, whereas the BB feels like it's got a big gob of power still untapped.

Doesn`t it just!!! I was on the old gal on Christmas eve and had "rushed" up to the ton before easing off. Got so engrossed in the rush I nearly forgot the other three gears. I looooooooooooooooooove my bird. :yo: :yo:
 

Jaws

Corporal CockUp
Staff member
Moderator
Club Sponsor
And its a proper coloured one to Skiers ! :bow:
 
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