• Welcome to the new B.I.R.D. Forum. Please be sure to read the "New Member / New Registered ? Please Read" thread in the Coffee Shop. This contains some important information. To become a full member ( £5.90 a year ) simply click on your user name near the top on the right I hope you enjoy the new site ................ Jaws ( John )

"CRUISE MISSILES" A BIGGER FACTOR IN SLEEP CRASHES THAN TIREDNESS

Wolfie

Is a lunp
Speed Limiters and Slower Speeds the Real Culprits

The dangers of driving when over tired have been highlighted recently. Reports have suggested that a driver who has had five hours sleep is as dangerous as a drunken driver, and that nearly half of drivers surveyed admitted to driving after less than five hours sleep during the past year.

The ABD has long been concerned about the number of road accidents that involve vehicles, particularly HGV's, running into the back of stationary traffic, straying onto the hard shoulder or leaving the carriageway altogether. These accidents are all sleep related, and we believe that forcing drivers to travel at one steady speed, especially one that is slower than they would otherwise choose, turns them into what Traffic Officers call "Cruise Missiles", waiting to make a lethal strike.

"The biggest factor in these accidents is not the amount of sleep the driver had the previous night, but boredom," says the ABD's Mark McArthur-Christie. "When a driver is travelling at a steady speed which is too slow to require him to make regular decisions and control inputs, he is lulled by the monotony of the passing scenery and the steady drone of his engine into a kind of stupor, which makes him vulnerable to missing obvious hazards or lapsing into full sleep."

HGV drivers have been afflicted for the past ten years with speed limiters set at 56mph - below the HGV motorway speed limit of 60mph. This means that an HGV driver will inevitably drive on the limiter rather than looking at the road and making decisions. HGV and PSV related fatalities make up 50.4% of all motorway deaths in 2002, and deaths of HGV drivers increased by 24% the year after limiters were made compulsory (1995 vs 1994)

Increasingly, speed limits are being lowered and more rigidly enforced, leading to more car drivers opting out of driving intelligently on major roads and turning themselves into cruise missiles. This is why the death rate on the Nevada freeway, in the days when it was limited to 55mph, was three times higher than the largely unrestricted German autobahns.

"The possibility of introducing satellite controlled limiters onto cars fills us with horror," continued McArthur-Christie. "We are absolutely convinced these devices would greatly increase the motorway accident rate by turning all motorists into sleepy cruise missiles."

The ABD fully agrees with the advice given to drivers who start to feel uncontrollably sleepy - stop, rest, snooze and drink coffee. We are pleased to see organisations like BRAKE backing our calls for more rest areas. However, we call on the DfT to consider more carefully the effects of their obsession with speed reduction on driver behaviour. We believe that motorway safety could be greatly improved by raising the limit to 80mph - the speed at which most drivers WANT to travel - and by setting HGV limiters at 65mph rather than 56mph, allowing drivers to control their speeds within their 60mph limit rather than being passengers in their own vehicles as they are at the moment.

The ABD condemns the idea that 5 hours sleep the previous night is some sort of magic number that triggers dangerous tiredness. Some people simply do not need that much sleep, whereas others cannot function at all with less than eight. Many are more tired at the end of a long days work than after a sleepless night. Dangerous fatigue can creep up on busy, generally tired people at any time - there is no simplistic rule - and suggesting there is one simply diverts attention away from the real problem of "cruise missiles", and from educating drivers as to how to recognise the symptoms of dangerous tiredness.

"This is typical of the road safety industry today," continued Mark McArthur-Christie. "Everything has to be reduced to a magic number. Four hours 59 minutes sleep - dangerous. Five hours one minute -safe! Next minute they will be sending policeman round to check we are all tucked up in bed. Thinking like this discredited speed limits, much reducing their usefulness as road safety tools. Repeating the same mistake over tiredness will have similarly lethal effects."
 
R

R2B2

Guest
Originally posted by Wolfie
and that nearly half of drivers surveyed admitted to driving after less than five hours sleep during the past year.

Holy Shit!!

Now that AIN'T much sleep!!! :cry:
 
X

XXLarge

Guest
Another gem from the Wolfie stable

I'm beginning to like these ABD peeps. They seem to talk a lot of sense, that's prolly why the powers-that-be tend to ignore them all the time.
We ought to encourage the biking organisations to touch base with them to see if they can help us with some of our problems - diesel spills for instance.

Keep 'em coming Wolf-man.

:yo:
 

Codbasher

Registered User
I gave up lorry driving just as the speed limiters came into force, I could drive like it, monotonous, boring etc. That was after a night in the sleeping in the cab after a 15 hour day, parking on a lorry with constant HGV movement going on around you all night, doors slamming etc.
I have forgotton the times I have had a 2 am start for a delivery in Scotland that day (I'm from Kent) driving up the M6 drinking coffee from a flask, window open just trying to stay awake, driving 4 1/2 hours non stop, 3/4 of an hour off, then another 4 1/2 hours to get to the drop.
I am sure other drivers will agree with me when I say that truck driving is a thankless task, I'm proud that I was good at my job, I am not proud that I possibly put mine and others lives in danger by being tired, esp when keeping your job was more important than anything else.


In short I agree 100% with ABDc7u8
 

AV8TOR

Sponsor
Wolfie? what gives one minute it's all risk, danger and outlaws!
Next you are scared of a few slow sleeping drivers, should be just like dodging bullets back in the old west - no problem to you ya Rebel (Different story for sad old blind motorcyclists)

But seriously all kidding aside Wolfie thats disturbing reading.
 

Wolfie

Is a lunp
I'm a transport controller, anything that affects my drivers affects me,(not just lost jobs,profit etc but by lost hrs with my kids and wife).

I will not tell my lot to drive over their hrs or pull the fuse out etc.etc and have a few job on the line agruements with the boss as well, over safety, because they affect people and me.

Today , i have pulled a vehicle off the road because it is leaking diesel, a small leak but i have told the boss that it is a GV9 and a massive leak, i then had to spend the next 3 hrs rushing around like a dickhead to try and hire another vehicle to do the run tomorrow, as well as do my normal part of the job, but i am proud that i did it, because i may have saved somebodies life with out knowning it.

My company are now having to pay approx ?1500 to fix the tank and its mountings because of me, if the boss had of insticted that the vehicle goes out then i would of let the authorities have known about it.

The speed danger biker thing is my way of letting off steam, and kicking out against society.

ABD website

http://www.abd.org.uk/
 
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AV8TOR

Sponsor
:bow: :bow: Ah your all front M8 wife kids upstanding member & all that

Outlaw :} :lick:
 

Rolfy Dave

Been there, and had one
Club Sponsor
I agree with everything you said Wolfie.

The article is bang on the nail....

I know... Coz I was that driver....Luckily, I only managed to kill about 120 roadcones on the M42 (no loss there then...lol). But the monotony of the white lines/drone of the engine/passing headlight/ etc etc and I didnt even know I was falling asleep...

First thing I knew was when the wagon started hitting the roadcones.. The sound was a long way off at first (through the sleep) then like hearing an alarm, it suddenly got louder & louder :h fook me... It almost wrote the front of the truck off...Motorway cones are about twice the size(and weight) of normal roadcones, and they had smashed all the front, and N/S front corner...

That was after a couple of 15 hour days, then 1/2 hour home / tea / short sleep / shower / 1/2hour back to work periods. Exactly as per the article...

Luckily, no one else was injured in my incident, but it could have been a lot LOT worse...And believe me AV8TOR, a 40 ton truck can kill just as easily as a bullet from a gun. Also, I was working in the dreaded 0300-0600 period, which is the most dangerous time for anyone to drive (as the brain is at its lowest energy levels)... So I did count my lucky stars that morning...

You keep on making sure everything is spot on Wolfie... I wish other transport managers were as diligent, and caring.

Rant over,

Best wishes,

Rolfy ........(ex J Sainsburys on 28th March...:f )
 
S

Steptoe

Guest
Not Sleep - but as important (to us)

My background is transport industry, and it never ceases to amaze me how paraniod the fleet engineers can be about fuel consumption, but will still let half the fleet out leaking derv from overfilled tanks.

Go to the first round-about from Felixstowe docks at 4am, and you will see enough derv on the road, to fill a small car.

Yes I agree about the falling asleep, I have driver HGV on the night trunk and it is very difficult to stay awake circa 4 am

Thanks god I dont have to do that any more



:eek:
 

Chunky Monkey

Registered User
I`m with The Wolf...

on this issue.....I too am a Transport Controller (TeamLeader in this case), for a large uk company (Wincanton Logistics).....
I regularly "walk the fleet"(140 trailers and 68 units) when on duty to check for leaks and possible injury inflicting items to other road users......
FULL marks Wolfie......sod the profits..keep people safe...we / they are all someones mum /dad /brother /sister /son /daughter.....
The delivery can always go next time.....

As for the sleep issue.....anyone who has admitted to less than 5 hours sleep would be taken "off the road" for their duty..THEY ARE NOT SAFE! same as anyone foolish to have been drinking the night before and still smell of alcohol..."sorry mate you`re sweeping up tonight"......you just cannot take the chance....

There had my rant.....

:rant: :bang: c7u8
 

Chunky Monkey

Registered User
Rolfy Dave........

how come you`re going to be an EX-Sainsbury driver mate.....I thought they were still looking for drivers AND paying VERY well for the service :dunno: :dunno:
A lot of my guys went to the Stoke and Hamshall depots before and over xmas.....they are reported to be paying ?28k for 48hours a week
 

Chunky Monkey

Registered User
Clive

I can see where your coming from mate, but the industry at the moment is suffering a national shortage of drivers...the only time drivers leave company`s in the Burton / Derby and Midlands areas as a whole is for personal gain(more money) , firms closing / relocating or drivers being sacked .......
so i was just a bit curious as to why Sainsburys were laying off...when they have been and still are vigorously trying to attract drivers....:dunno:
 
C

cb500boy

Guest
w;;v

Ive held my hgv for a little under two years so im not pretending to be the most able or experienced source in this matter, however i have a few points i'd like to raise..

After a recent accident on the M40 i belive that 65mph is simply irresponcible, after trying to stop an unlaiden hgv from 56mph in as short as time possible i really think hgv speed should be redused not increased, which will mean shorter days and longer rest periods for drivers.

The 9 hrs rest reduction should only be possible if the driver is away from base, not if he/she is at base, the driver should have 11 hrs at home this should not be negotiable .

i would also see companies taking a active interest in drivers health some sort of cab exersice would be nice....:} man8um
 

Rolfy Dave

Been there, and had one
Club Sponsor
Just wondered.......

...how slower speeds will mean shorted days & longer rest periods ???

If you slow things down, all that will happen is that more and more drivers will be forced to work the maximun hours which are available...(82 in a week :rolleyes: ) which also means thet we would be having reduced daily rest periods every day(just about).

I know from experience that around christmas and easter,I work the maximum hours available to me... This is expected and required by the employers, and not down to my discretion as per "the book".

I also know that a lorry if required can stop in the same distance a car can, and maybe even shorter than a bike...So to put the speed limit up to 65mph would make hardly any difference to stopping distances...

As a side line... can I have a personal trainer (Beyonce Knowles) for my cab please ????:k

Just on a weeks holiday now... then just 5 weeks to go before I get my big (c7u8 ) redudancy cheque...(Iwish)

Best wishes,

Rolfy

:beer:
 

Chunky Monkey

Registered User
CB500Boy

I`ll chat to you about the reasons behind your accident when i`m back at work Sunday night mate (this aint the place to air washing so to speak),,,,,but i do think if you had more experience in HEAVY goods rarther than the little old loads Littlewoods carry (max 18 tonne gross) you would have left more room to stop.....
You only need one near miss to make you realise, looking well ahead is the only way to drive LGV vehicles...not just follow the vehicle in front,,,,
by the way..you coming sunday to Matlock ????:dunno:
 

Chunky Monkey

Registered User
Rolfy

with reference to the maximum hours expected by the employer mate, when the WTD (working time directive) kicks in you`ll only be working a max of 10 hours DUTY per night shift (between the hours of 23.00 and 04.00 starts).....so you will only be allowed 50 hours max in a week..(5 shifts).then avaraged over the 17 week reference period, any time over your allocated 48 hours would need to be paid back "on block" by the start of your next reference period....
(sorry lecture time folks)........:loo:
Also mate the firm cannot make you work the max all the time, your reduced rest is at YOUR discresion...NOT the company`s..thats law........:t

NOT so chunky....(down to 14 stone)...:beer:
 
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