Have a bitch Cornering

[Cougar377]

What is it with car drivers and corners or bends..?

There seems to be an awful lot of cagers who can't take a bend without drifting way over into the opposite side of the road.

Speed doesn't seem to be a factor... I've seen it happen as slow as running pace.
It's often small hatchbacks or any SUV.
And the drivers are not from any specific age groups.

 

[T.C]

What is it with car drivers and corners or bends..?

There seems to be an awful lot of cagers who can't take a bend without drifting way over into the opposite side of the road.

Speed doesn't seem to be a factor... I've seen it happen as slow as running pace.
It's often small hatchbacks or any SUV.
And the drivers are not from any specific age groups.

You ask 95% of road users (and I include riders in this as well) about the dynamics of cornering and the majority don't have a clue.

In my days as an advanced instructor and examiner (car and bike) I used to spend more time explaining the basics of cornering than anything else.

Even the old principle of slow in fast (or slower in slow ) out was lost on the majority, but the real issue is that with most male road users they have massive ego's and hate to have criticism levelled at them and will not accept that they are not the driving/riding legend they believe that they are.

Once you start talking vanishing point, limit point, crossfall & camber, advanced view, observation links, you can see it going straight over their heads.

And of course the current L test does not help which is and has been unfit for purpose for years.

I started advanced instruction and examining in the early 80's and the same old problems keep resurfacing despite the fact that information is much more readily available.

In short, a complete lack of knowledge on the part of the rider/driver

 

[Nige F]

What is it with car drivers and corners or bends..?

There seems to be an awful lot of cagers who can't take a bend without drifting way over into the opposite side of the road.

Speed doesn't seem to be a factor... I've seen it happen as slow as running pace.
It's often small hatchbacks or any SUV.
And the drivers are not from any specific age groups.

I think a lot of it is a lack of ability to see any further than the end of the bonnet, if that far.

I'm finding more and more of late that drivers can't even see indicators when I'm trying to change lanes, so what hope have they got to observe judge and deal with a bend.

As TC says.,one of the biggest thing to get across in training is looking and reading the bend. All the info is there but there's a complete lack ability to process it.

I can recall spending quite a lot of time on both car and bike courses been taught the art of cornering.

 

[Malone]

And what about the inability to turn into a road on the left, they must first pull out across the centre of the road to turn left into a feeder road. Don’t they realise the steering actually goes further than just a half turn of the wheel?

 

[Squag1]

And what about the inability to turn into a road on the left, they must first pull out across the centre of the road to turn left into a feeder road. Don’t they realise the steering actually goes further than just a half turn of the wheel?

The invisible trailer my friend calls that

 

[slim63]

As Nige F and T.C mention its the inability to read the road ahead that is the main problem, its not taught on either bike or car lessons & not even mentioned by a lot of instructors

When I was bike instructing & doing post test lessons if I started to talk about the apex, road positioning, vanishing point or anything to do with assessing a bend or the road ahead it was like I had started to talk another language to some people, those that had been driving a car for a few years previous to taking the bike test were generally the worst

The other thing I have noticed over the years is some people simply don't have the capacity to process all the visual information very fast so consequently end up entering a bend quicker than their brain can work out what they need to do next, as T.C mentions when this happens the old adage of slow in fast out goes right out of the window (we have all done it learning from it is the key)

In the end I got pretty sick of trying to get people to look up & assess the road ahead, I would say less than 30% got it & went on to become good safe riders, most of the rest seemed to get by & no doubt it will have clicked for some later on but a small percentage will have never got it because they knew best, I just hope they survived

Funnily enough it always seemed easier to teach women, they always seemed to genuinely want to learn, only a few years ago I had a bloke who's wife I had taught from scratch having never rode a bike at all before telling me how she had become a great quick & smooth rider over the years since passing her test, made me really quite proud that did His next comments sum it up for me "she's really good in the bends" and " I don't know how you did it, what is the secret?"
it took all of my willpower not to tell him to be honest "secret" my arse, he had be riding 30 odd years but wasn't willing or able to learn a damn thing

 

[jerryt]

What is it with car drivers and corners or bends..?

There seems to be an awful lot of cagers who can't take a bend without drifting way over into the opposite side of the road.

Speed doesn't seem to be a factor... I've seen it happen as slow as running pace.
It's often small hatchbacks or any SUV.
And the drivers are not from any specific age groups.

The village I live in has an 'S' bend with double white line's on it as the church wall is tall and you can't see oncoming vehicle's, But for some reason 8/10 people straight line the bends and cross the white line's! I always stay as close to the kerb as possible when I drive through!

 

[andyBeaker]

The village I live in has an 'S' bend with double white line's on it as the church wall is tall and you can't see oncoming vehicle's, But for some reason 8/10 people straight line the bends and cross the white line's! I always stay as close to the kerb as possible when I drive through!

Same here - the next road on from us has a,slight ‘s’ bend, you can almost guarantee you will be squeezed by a car coming in the opposite direction drifting toward the centre.

one thing I would say about car drivers - I’m not too proud to admit that my car driving got a lot better after I started riding a motorised bicycle, particularly observation skills. A lot of the time the car in front is now in ’peripheral’ (Sort of) vision, with the main focus way further up the road.

Disappearing point. Brilliant!

 

[Cougar377]

As Nige F and T.C mention its the inability to read the road ahead that is the main problem, its not taught on either bike or car lessons & not even mentioned by a lot of instructors

When I was bike instructing & doing post test lessons if I started to talk about the apex, road positioning, vanishing point or anything to do with assessing a bend or the road ahead it was like I had started to talk another language to some people, those that had been driving a car for a few years previous to taking the bike test were generally the worst

The other thing I have noticed over the years is some people simply don't have the capacity to process all the visual information very fast so consequently end up entering a bend quicker than their brain can work out what they need to do next, as T.C mentions when this happens the old adage of slow in fast out goes right out of the window (we have all done it learning from it is the key)

In the end I got pretty sick of trying to get people to look up & assess the road ahead, I would say less than 30% got it & went on to become good safe riders, most of the rest seemed to get by & no doubt it will have clicked for some later on but a small percentage will have never got it because they knew best, I just hope they survived

Funnily enough it always seemed easier to teach women, they always seemed to genuinely want to learn, only a few years ago I had a bloke who's wife I had taught from scratch having never rode a bike at all before telling me how she had become a great quick & smooth rider over the years since passing her test, made me really quite proud that did His next comments sum it up for me "she's really good in the bends" and " I don't know how you did it, what is the secret?"
it took all of my willpower not to tell him to be honest "secret" my arse, he had be riding 30 odd years but wasn't willing or able to learn a damn thing

A few years ago I was considering training to become a driving instructor.
An ex instructor put me off in the end. He'd jacked it in because he was fed up of teenage learners arguing about everything he was trying to teach them.

 

[andyBeaker]

A few years ago I was considering training to become a driving instructor.
An ex instructor put me off in the end. He'd jacked it in because he was fed up of teenage learners arguing about everything he was trying to teach them.

No you didn’t.

 

[Lee337]

I'm not the greatest of riders by a long shot, yes, I've done a few rider improvement courses, had a few lessons with the local ROSPA group and got up to test readiness with the IAM *before a trackday off had me off bikes for a few months), and one of my goals this year is to finally get the IAM test in.

I was riding with my nephew a couple of years ago, who had recently passed his CBT and was working towards his A2 & I noticed his road position was more often than not right bang in the middle of his lane, where most of the cr@p from cars/trucks finds itself. I also noted that the front of his bike rarely dipped. In fact whenever we came up to a junction, it was the back of his bike that dipped, so I asked him about it. He was told by his instructor that riding in the middle, between the gutter, which is dirty & full of debris, and the middle of the road, away from oncoming traffic, is the safest position for a motorbike. As for the rear of the bike dipping, that was because he was using his rear brake in preference to the front.

He's since passed his car test & both me & his father (my brother) convinced him to take advanced lessons after being in the car with him, which he did before lockdown II. I've not been in a car with him since, but either he's got better or my brother has got used to his driving as he's not said anything bad about it since.

 

[Cougar377]

No you didn’t.

10 minutes or full half hour..?

 

[DanBow]

IAM or RoSPA are definitely worth the time and money. I was an observer for IAM for about 5 years, loved it. I thought I was a reasonable driver until I got a bike, then better when I did my IAM and better again when I became on observer. Andy is right, you take so much more information in. I was planning on doing RoSPA last year but it never happened, maybe this year.

You would imagine that anyone that is paying time and money to do a course would be all ears but I had a bloke who looked me up and down, when he was allocated to me for that days session, then turned off. He must have been late 40s and I was mid 30s at the time. You could just see his "you're too young to teach me anything, I've ben riding longer than you've been alive!" look. It was so funny when I said "I'll do a test standard ride, you follow me" and I got the to designated layby and was waiting for him, stood at the side of my bike with my helmet off when he arrived! Funnily enough, he eagerly took in every word I said for the rest of the session!

 

[Squag1]

Quote from trainer tutoring adult pupil.

Keep in lane
What do you mean
Keep between the broken lines.
Oh is that what they are for.

To younger pupil after pulling handbrake to stop car.

Did you not see the parked truck?
Yes
What were you going to do?
Don't know.

 

[Pow-Lo]

IAM or RoSPA are definitely worth the time and money. I was an observer for IAM for about 5 years, loved it. I thought I was a reasonable driver until I got a bike, then better when I did my IAM and better again when I became on observer. Andy is right, you take so much more information in. I was planning on doing RoSPA last year but it never happened, maybe this year.

You would imagine that anyone that is paying time and money to do a course would be all ears but I had a bloke who looked me up and down, when he was allocated to me for that days session, then turned off. He must have been late 40s and I was mid 30s at the time. You could just see his "you're too young to teach me anything, I've ben riding longer than you've been alive!" look. It was so funny when I said "I'll do a test standard ride, you follow me" and I got the to designated layby and was waiting for him, stood at the side of my bike with my helmet off when he arrived! Funnily enough, he eagerly took in every word I said for the rest of the session!

I don't know if things have changed of late but I did RoSPA back in the light 90s and it prolly saved my life. At the time, I chose RoSPA over IAM because I'd heard that IAM have you riding 18 inches from the white line at all times.

I wanted to do some more training last year but couldn't. There's an ex-copper in South Wales that does one to five day courses on the bike or in the cage. I might look him up and get on it.

 

[T.C]

"I'll do a test standard ride, you follow me" and I got the to designated layby and was waiting for him, stood at the side of my bike with my helmet off when he arrived! Funnily enough, he eagerly took in every word I said for the rest of the session!

That is a common experience.

I always started with an assessment so that I knew what I was dealing with and what their major faults might be.

Many would turn up on state of the art R1's or GSXR1000's or ZX10's in their flash kit obviously with the intention of impressing me and showing that my GSXR1100WP or Blackbird or Pan 1100 was going to be no match for their state of the art rocket ship.

Like you, about 10 minutes from the end of the ride I would take over and lead the way with a domo ride and you could see the little spec behind becoming even a smaller spec behind even though I was not giving it the berries (after all the whole idea is to show them the standard) and so speed limits were maintained.

4 or 5 miles up the road I would have to pull over for the student to pull up and I lost count of the number of times I got accused of breaking the speed limits or having a specially adapted bike on the grounds that I must have done something as they were unable to keep up.

When they realised that there was no trickery or magic, but just sensible use of the road, you could see the eyes widen and the jaws drop as the realisation sunk in that there was more to riding quick then simply opening the throttle.

As the point was made, it is not about what you ride but how you ride which is why the Blackbird caught a lot of people out as many who had never ridden a bird assumed it was a straight line blaster and not a bike that could show a supersports a clean pair of heels through the twisties or leave some heavy metal for dead on the track (as I did do a few times )

Magic days!!

 

[DanBow]

I've heard a lot of different things that each group say about the other. In my view, both groups teach the same practices from the same boom to the same standard. The only difference being RoSPA has 3 pass grades and you have to retest every three years, IAM is just pass or fail with no retest.

I'm only going down the RoSPA route as my mate is an instructor for them.

If you can, I would definitely recommend getting a bit of extra training. We all ho a little rusty as time goes on.

 

[T.C]

I don't know if things have changed of late but I did RoSPA back in the light 90s and it prolly saved my life. At the time, I chose RoSPA over IAM because I'd heard that IAM have you riding 18 inches from the white line at all times.

I wanted to do some more training last year but couldn't. There's an ex-copper in South Wales that does one to five day courses on the bike or in the cage. I might look him up and get on it.

IAM have come a long way in the past few years as their qualification at the top end have had a major overhaul and is now a match for the RoSPA (and in fact may even surpass RoSPA) grades.

I did my time as an IAM examiner and stopped because the standard was so poor with no retest requirement and it simply being a pass or fail. This is all very different now and in my 40 years as an advanced examiner there have been a lot of improvements to the testing of civilian riders at advanced level.

The 18 inches you refer to is called the dominant position, and is fine (I actually ride on the while time) providing you never sacrifice safety for position. In other words, sit out as wide and as far as you feel comfortable to increase your view, but be prepared to give up your position if it maintains a margin of safety.

This is why when I was chief motorcycle examiner for RoSPA we prohibited the use of offsiding and then the IAM followed suit a year or so later and should not be taught although one or two still do, but this is another debate altogether...

 

[T.C]

I've heard a lot of different things that each group say about the other. In my view, both groups teach the same practices from the same boom to the same standard. The only difference being RoSPA has 3 pass grades and you have to retest every three years, IAM is just pass or fail with no retest.

I'm only going down the RoSPA route as my mate is an instructor for them.

If you can, I would definitely recommend getting a bit of extra training. We all ho a little rusty as time goes on.

Hope I have just covered that issue in my previous post

 

[Pow-Lo]

IAM have come a long way in the past few years as their qualification at the top end have had a major overhaul and is now a match for the RoSPA (and in fact may even surpass RoSPA) grades.

I did my time as an IAM examiner and stopped because the standard was so poor with no retest requirement and it simply being a pass or fail. This is all very different now and in my 40 years as an advanced examiner there have been a lot of improvements to the testing of civilian riders at advanced level.

The 18 inches you refer to is called the dominant position, and is fine (I actually ride on the while time) providing you never sacrifice safety for position. In other words, sit out as wide and as far as you feel comfortable to increase your view, but be prepared to give up your position if it maintains a margin of safety.

This is why when I was chief motorcycle examiner for RoSPA we prohibited the use of offsiding and then the IAM followed suit a year or so later and should not be taught although one or two still do, but this is another debate altogether...

I did a two day course with the South Wales Police instructors' instructor (he taught the instructors to instruct) back in 1997. £200 was a lot of money to me then but it was prolly the best £200 I could have spent. He's retired now and I'm looking for another ex or serving Dibble so I can do something similar. There's a chap in west Wales, Wynne John, but I hear he's retired