cash cow.........

Discussion in 'Legal Eagle Roost' started by robsbird, Mar 23, 2016.

  1. robsbird

    robsbird red ones are faster Club Sponsor

    Any of you that travel around like my self........

    Cheshire constabulary are turning in to a cash cow....

    i had an accident on the A41 at Rowton BP garage

    im now being offered a driver Alertness course at the cost of ?150

    OR they will take me to court to have the case heard in court

    no statement under oath was taken from me at the time of the accident nor has the Video from my van been seen by them and there was only me and one other car involved

    the offense is driving without due care and attention.

    sh1tehppns
     
  2. noobie

    noobie Clueless in most things Club Sponsor

    Wasn't it something like court fines go to the government but "safety" courses go direct to either the police force that stopped you or the council that funds that force?
     
  3. robsbird

    robsbird red ones are faster Club Sponsor

    that was my point what they working on to say im a fault.......

    :dunno:
     
  4. T.C

    T.C Been there, and had one Club Sponsor

    Then why not contest it?

    If you are in the right, and if the video from your vehicle supports your actions, then tell them that you want your day in court on a not guilty plea.

    To convict for careless driving it has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt that your standard of driving fell below the standard expected of a reasonably safe and competent driver.

    If your video footage is sufficient to establish that you are not guilty or at least reasonable doubt, and given that the Police have not either taken a statement under caution or a section 9 statement or interviewed you, then there should also be sufficient ammunition to not only go for an aquital but ask for costs against the Police. @tu* Simples.....
     
  5. robsbird

    robsbird red ones are faster Club Sponsor

    thanks for the info TC

    this was my point they have not done any thing to look into this matter
    but all they sent me a letter to attend the course or it will go to court this is the part that go my back up and made me say there just trying to extract money from who ever they can.

    the way i look at this if i accept the course im saying i am guilty

    so iv replied saying im not booking the course and i will go to court
    they will have to have the evidence to take it to court so lets see what they have.
     
  6. T.C

    T.C Been there, and had one Club Sponsor

    I have had to interview the Police on a few occasions about the way they investigated particular accidents.

    One was a potential fatal which turned into a catastrophic injury, but none the less the Police treated it as a damage only and then decided to prosecute the rider.

    It was not dealt with by Traffic but local plod.

    When I interviewed the Police all I got in reply to my questions from a very arrogant WPC was "If you understood how an investigation is carried out, you would not be asking me these questions"....

    Bearing in mind that I had a copy of the Police file, I then asked "How she could determine who was guilty of any offences or liable for the cause of the crash when she had not interviewed or taken a staement from anyone?" I was told quite bluntly that she was there and was able through experience to make that determination, and that she did not need to interview anyone.

    A 40 minute interview carried on like this and not once did she even refer to her notes.

    Now bearing in mind that not only was this a serious personal injury claim, but also like you a potential prosecution for careless driving against the rider.

    At the end of the interview (and it is not something I have done before) I said to her "Hats off now, I am disgusted at your attitude and the way you investigated this crash particularly given the seriousness of it". She immidiately became defensive and fed me a load of bullshit agan about knowledge, experience (she had 4 years service) , so then I let th cat out of the bag nd told her my experience.

    The look on her face was a picture :-0)

    The good news was that the prosecution was dropped due to insufficient evidence as I made it quite clear that if it went to court I would appear as an expert witness for the defence, and we also won substantial damages on the civil side.

    I mention this simply because the Police are quite regularly takeing easy options and not investigating properly (and making assumptions) on the basis that they believe that the motoring public will just roll over and accept it. :bang:
     
  7. Howard

    Howard Registered User Read Only

    I know exactly where this is, what actually happened Rob?
     
  8. robsbird

    robsbird red ones are faster Club Sponsor

    i was heading north and turned right in to the garage to get coffee

    on exiting the garage a 3:45 Pm i looked right and there was a silver Merc
    indicating left and slowing to turn in to the garage this car was now blocking the traffic from my right so i moved out to the middle of the road 3 cars passed me heading north and a white van slowed to let me join the traffic again heading north.

    just as i was about to move a little fiat come from my right took the bumper of the van and she ended up in what was the old wooden bus stop across the road.


    see for your self

    http://vid597.photobucket.com/album...2016-03-07 16-39-02.271_front_zpsz3p1gypt.mp4

    :whi5tl:
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2016
  9. Boggymarsh

    Boggymarsh Registered User Read Only

    I am a little concerned that something quite crucial to all of this is missing.

    You have been involved in a collision where it would appear that damage was caused to the vehicles but with no suggestion of any injury or damage to any roadside furniture or third party property.

    Was the vehicle you were travlelling in yours or a company vehicle?
    Did you stop at the scene?
    Did the the other driver stop?
    Did you exchange details ( name, address, insurance policy details)?
    Did the police attend?

    You have made no mention of being given a Notice of Intended Prosecution, either verbally at the scene by an attending police officer or via post ( which should have been received within 14 days of the alleged offence).

    Without a NIP issued correctly within the appropriate time frame then the alleged offence cannot be heard in court, and for the force to threaten such action is an abuse of process.

    You might like to speak with TC further about this.

    Mods... Can this please be moved to the legal matters area of the forum.
     
  10. robsbird

    robsbird red ones are faster Club Sponsor

    You have been involved in a collision where it would appear that damage was caused to the vehicles but with no suggestion of any injury or damage to any roadside furniture or third party property.
    After she hit me she removed the old wooden bus stop and that has now been removed


    Was the vehicle you were travlelling in yours or a company vehicle?
    Company van
    Did you stop at the scene?
    yes i stopped the van was not derivable
    Did the the other driver stop?
    she did and was taken away walking in an ambulance called by the van driver that then drove off
    Did you exchange details ( name, address, insurance policy details)?
    the police officer did this for us a ( special PC )
    Did the police attend?
    Yes breath tested me and checked the van was insured


    You have made no mention of being given a Notice of Intended Prosecution, either verbally at the scene by an attending police officer or via post ( which should have been received within 14 days of the alleged offence).

    No all i have had is a letter for Cheshire Constabulary they have done a Assessment of the incident as been completed on the evidence available, it is believed that i have committed an offense
    contrary to Section 3 of the road traffic Act 1988 by driving a motor vehicle without due care and attention.

    on this i consider it appropriate to offer you an opportunity to attend a driver Alertness course as an alternative to placing the matter before the Magistrates court


    Without a NIP issued correctly within the appropriate time frame then the alleged offence cannot be heard in court, and for the force to threaten such action is an abuse of process.

     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2016
  11. Jaws

    Jaws Corporal CockUp Staff Member

    Duly shifted
     
  12. Boggymarsh

    Boggymarsh Registered User Read Only

    Post deleted!
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2016
  13. T.C

    T.C Been there, and had one Club Sponsor

    In the situation you describe, there is actually no requirement to issue an NIP or give a verbal NIP as you know you were knowingly involved in a crash at the time. So unfortunately, not being given an NIP is not going to work as a get out of jail free card (no pun intended)

    Now I have seen the video footage, you may have difficulty arguing a not guilty plea if it were to go to court on the basis that the court would base their decision on the fact that you failed to give priority to traffic on the major carruiageway.

    I would suggest that the video actually makes it look worse than it actually was, so don't shoot me, I can only speak as I would find if you asked me to look at it in a professional fee paying capacity.

    I can appreciate your sentiments and your reasoning, but you would have to convince a court, and I am not sure your video footage would do that.

    That said, I still think you need to find out what evidence the Police have and intend to use to support a prosecution.

    Did the third party have an in car cam running, so is there alternative video footage?

    Are there independent witnesses who have come forward and given a conflciting account?

    I assume you have not been formally interviewed? If not you have not been cautioned that you are not obliged to say anything, blah, blah, blah......

    There are a lot of discrepancies in terms of procedure, unfortunately the non NIP is not one of them.
     
  14. Boggymarsh

    Boggymarsh Registered User Read Only

    Feeling a right cock now! :wank:

    Sorry, TC. I am mistaken and of course section 1 RTOA does not apply in the case where the driver knows an accident has occurred.


    It's along time since I have delved into the world of RTCs, some fifteen years since I dealt with one that needed to go to prosecution. No excuse, I should still know this kind of stuff.

    However, with no roadside interview under caution to obtain an account, or indeed a voluntary interview at the local nick still concerns me. Where is his primary account of events recorded?

    Sorry, Rob, for duff info.

    Back to the Blackstones for me!
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2016
  15. andyBeaker

    andyBeaker Moderator Staff Member Moderator Club Sponsor

    There is a different perspective on this .... And in saying what I am about to say it is not intended in any way to apportion 'blame' for this particular incident.

    Plod have more than enough to do so if a sensible course of action can be taken with minimum fuss and without ruining lives then why not? At the end of the day the course is only being offered As An option so what harm is done?

    Without casting an uneducated view on this incident, and clearly without the emotion of being involved in it, I suspect my view would be 'c'est la vie', stump up for the course and that brings it to an end. Going to court brings a lot of variables that cAnnot be controlled, why take the risk?
     
  16. T.C

    T.C Been there, and had one Club Sponsor

    BoggyMarsh, it is not an issue. If we all knew everything the world would grind to a halt. I deal with traffic law and crashes every day, I teach traffic law and that changes every other day, so it can be difficult to keep up. I do not have a clue when it comes to dealing with crime offences. We all have our specialist areas @tu*

    I do agree with you in regards to roadside procedure (which I think I said) and for me is where the discrepancies lie. No interview, no statement, no formal caution before any interview, no contemp notes of any interview made?

    Andybird, I hear what you are saying, but there are procedures that have not been complied with, and being told that a person is being held liable for something without any proper investigation or interview having taken place is one such procedure that has not been complied with.

    Yes the Police are busy, but that is still no excuse for non compliance, especially when there is a potential prosecutioin pending, and which could also from a civil side determine or influence insurance companies in resepct of liability and te implications that carries.
     
  17. andyBeaker

    andyBeaker Moderator Staff Member Moderator Club Sponsor

    I understand what you are saying about procedures. On the flip
    Side of this 'procedures' should not be a deciding factor in 'guilty or innocent' but I accept that is rose tinted in 2016 when many avoid justice on technicalities and there are many legal eagles who make a good living out of it -
    Again I emphasise I am not standing in judgement of the rights and wrongs on this particular case or indeed casting aspersions against you TC -- unfortunately there are rotten eggs in every basket.

    It seems to me plod are providing an easy resolution to someone that they judge from a quick review is at fault in what was fortunately a minor incident, with resources being used in appropriate manner in proportion to the accident? Can't see an issue with that, the resolution can be declined. Would it make a difference if the other party Was also given the option of taking the course as well thus removing the 'if I take the course I am admitting guilt' feeling?

    The irony to this one is the car involved in this accident looked like it was pulling a manouvre that is more typical of a motorbike than a car. Thanks heavens it was a car.
     
  18. robsbird

    robsbird red ones are faster Club Sponsor

    as said i would not mind doing the course at all BUT this to me the way it is worded is me saying i am at fault.

    As it also has this will stay on my file for 3 years and if i was to have a accident in this time this could also be used.

    this is why i feel it should go to court then the out come will be final
    as if i also attend the course the other party could then also use this in a personal claim

    if they find me a fault then so be it.

    I'm also not a fair weather driver so if found at fault i could lose my job
    and covering over 60K a year with work and biking i would like to think i did what any other good driver would have done in this matter so for me to hold my hand up a take the rap dose not site easy with me.
     
  19. andyBeaker

    andyBeaker Moderator Staff Member Moderator Club Sponsor

    In fairness you hadn't mentioned the 'it will be on file for 3 Years bit before. Are you being asked to 'admit fault' as part of taking the course?
     
  20. robsbird

    robsbird red ones are faster Club Sponsor

    No not being ask to admit fault but im sure if its going on file thay will take it as i am.

    in the video when you slow it down at the beginning i was at the exit of the garage i then pull to the middle of the road and two cars pass me going north

    when she then comes in to shot she was on the other side of the road before the we hit

    So was she speeding and could not stop in time was she not looking as if the two car pass the front of my van when i was already in the middle of the road it must be a case that i did not just pull out on her.

    :dunno:
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2016

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