• Welcome to the new B.I.R.D. Forum. Please be sure to read the "New Member / New Registered ? Please Read" thread in the Coffee Shop. This contains some important information. To become a full member ( £5.90 a year ) simply click on your user name near the top on the right I hope you enjoy the new site ................ Jaws ( John )

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robsbird

red ones are faster
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just thought id up date this for you.

After trying a number of time to contact the reporting officer and with not much joy and being passed round and round and fobbed off.

i ended up filling in the complaint form on there web site..........

within 6h the sergeant has called me.

He tells me the letter i have got is just a standard letter they send to any one that has been in an accident as part of there roads policing campaign.

if i do not the accept this within 14 days it will then get referred back to the reporting officer to look in to and see if they can then get it to court i would then at this time be interviewed.

:dunno:
 
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mikeyw64

Guest
just thought id up date this for you.

After trying a number of time to contact the reporting officer and with not much joy and being passed round and round and fobbed off.

i ended up filling in the complaint form on there web site..........

within 6h the sergeant has called me.

He tells me the letter i have got is just a standard letter they send to any one that has been in an accident as part of there roads policing campaign.

if i do not the accept this within 14 days it will then get referred back to the reporting officer to look in to and see if they can then get it to court i would then at this time be interviewed.

:dunno:

That smacks fo sheer laziness. WOnder if the other party got the same letter?
 

robsbird

red ones are faster
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That smacks fo sheer laziness. WOnder if the other party got the same letter?

the more that comes to light would say i was right in my post title

But i will just not roll over for them and thats no way bashing the police
as i know most do care about what they do but like all of us in life some things just have to be done right and in the right manner.
 

Judge Dredd

Been there, and had one
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I dont know the area. Is there a google image or map of the place where the RTC took place?
Also did you have your indicator running showing your intention to turn right and join the main carriageway?
 

Howard

Registered User
Knowing this road, what I don't understand is that, it is a 40mph speed limit, that section is on a long right hand bend (coming from the north) but line of sight around the bend is good, so it looks like the front of your car you was basically in the middle of the road, so my question is the fiat must have seen you and in my opinion could have stopped, it looks like they have seen you and tried to drive around the front of your car instead of letting you go? You have been looking left at the van that has let you out assuming that any traffic coming from the north has to stop as you are blocking the road?
 

andyBeaker

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That smacks fo sheer laziness. WOnder if the other party got the same letter?

To me it smacks of being under resourced and dealing with a relatively minor incident in a sensible and appropriate manner that probably works well in the vast majority of cases.
 

robsbird

red ones are faster
Club Sponsor
To me it smacks of being under resourced and dealing with a relatively minor incident in a sensible and appropriate manner that probably works well in the vast majority of cases.


i would say yes But as said this is my living and just to accept it to me is saying im at fault with out the facts being looked at.

the 3 years on file and what also comes after this is unknown this is also a problem.

:dunno:
 

andyBeaker

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Yeah sorry I just get a bit hacked off when plod get criticised for 'being lazy'. I am sure they would love to have the resources to police the way that they would like to.

I do understand how important this is to you, if you are anything like me you are probably replaying it in your mind every five minutes and can still hear the noise it made.

The main thing is nobody was hurt
 

Jaws

Corporal CockUp
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To me it smacks of being under resourced and dealing with a relatively minor incident in a sensible and appropriate manner that probably works well in the vast majority of cases.

I am sorry Andy,
justice is not something that should be doled out as 'something that works well for the vast majority', no matter how big the majority is.
Justice HAS to be used 'per customer', as we see here in this thread, there is no other fair and meaningful way...

I wonder if you would be quite so laid back if it was you in the same situation ?
 

T.C

Registered User
To me it smacks of being under resourced and dealing with a relatively minor incident in a sensible and appropriate manner that probably works well in the vast majority of cases.

2 points to make on that.

99% of the time the Police are not interested in damage only crashes. This goes back to even in my time when we were becoming increasingly agents for the insurers and we were told even back then, if the law has been complied with, the road is not blocked and there are no allegations of a serious traffic offence having been committed, then leave alone. Record the details on an HO/RT6 (brown card minor RTC report) and leave the scene.

But, if they are going to deal with any traffic incident, then at least deal with it properly.

This means conducting the interview properly and appropriately, as soon as the possibility of an offence is suspected then the suspect should be cautioned, all Q & A should be recorded, witness details obtained, all other drivers interviewed and then make an informed opinion as to 1, whether any offences have been committed, and 2, report said persons for any offences with aview to prosecution.

The interview at the scene is in many case the most important ad most relevant because the drivers have not yet had time to think up or make up a story or account of what happened. In other words, any interview conducted at the scene tends to be a more accurate statement than any written section 9 statement several months down the road when they have had time to think about it.

You do not shut the door after the horse has bolted.

This has been dealt with totally arse about face and is NOT a reasonable and fair way of dealing with an incident.

To send out a standard letter as suggested is trying it on and 100% incompetence and lazy perticularly with the implications in respect of insurance claims.

A driver awareness course is not recorded on the DVLA database, but it is none the less a cost that should not be incurred just because of a lack of a proper investigation, and the inference of guilt is wrong.

Contrary to the common myth, we still have the rule of Innocent until proven guilty and the job of the Police is to gather the evidence and then put that evidence before the joke called the Crown Prosecution Service for a decision to be made as to whether a case goes to trial.

They are not judge and jury in these types of cases, so I understand totally where Robsbird is coming from.

The bottom line is that this has not been dealt with in a simple and appropropriate manner. The rules are there for a reason regardless of how serious or minor the nature of the incident is, and these clowns appear to have completely ignored the rules.

Whilst I still have to stand by my original comment regarding the possible outcome if it went to trial, it is still for the Police to prove a case of careless driving beyond all reasonable doubt, and the way they have handled this matter makes me seriously doubt that they can. (just make sure that your video evidence is lost :whi5tl: )
 

fosters

Registered User
I don't know the road but have watched your video. You are patiently waiting for a gap in order to pull out of the exit. From the time you move off and physically enter the carriageway to the point of impact is just under 8 seconds.

Assuming she is travelling at the speed limit, which someone said is 40mph, she is travelling at 17.88 metres per second, allowing for her to see you and reaction time of 1 second that means she has travelled 143 metres in the time you first moved off until the impact!!

Say she is travelling at 60mph and that's 26.82 metres per second, 214 metres in 8 seconds. Highway Code give stopping distance at 60mph of 73 metres ( 240ft). That's from time she should have seem, reacted, applied the brake and stopped. At 40 mph that is 36 metres (118 feet ) overall

So to simplify this, if she was travelling at 40mph on a clear road say, she should see and react and stop in a distance of 36 metres yet at 8 seconds she has actually travelled 143 metres! Nearly FOUR TIMES THAT DISTANCE! At 60mph nearly THREE times the distance.

She has displayed a lack of attention however you look at it.

Yes you are partially at fault as you have to give way to traffic on a major road etc but she has also displayed an element of careless driving for failing to react to your presence. What if you were a pedestrian or broken down car!, chances are she would have hit them too.

Yes her view may have been restricted by the Mercedes in front of her slowing to turn into the petrol station but she should slow down because her vision would have been restricted.

Not in million years is that a without due care on your part, if that went to cps with your video and a reconstruction of her position when you started moving off they would not summons you for it. You will be probably be blamed by insurance but she may get partial blame too

Had you have pulled out and she hit you within a few seconds then that is clearly your fault but from video that isn't the case. I would not accept the course. I would do a recorded delivery letter back to them, showing copy of video and your detailed reasons and chances are that will be the end of it. When someone looks at the video and all available evidence that decision will change I'm sure.

Also speak with manager of petrol station, see if cameras cover the road and collision, if so ask them to retain it for your insurance company, doubt they will let you have it but they might. The police should have spoken with them if not then the investigation is not fair or complete and mention that in your letter too. Keep to the basics, don't incriminate yourself on paper.
 
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Judge Dredd

Been there, and had one
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The thing that keeps bugging me is why did the other driver move to the other side of the road when it should have been obvious that slowing/stopping was the correct/safest thing to do.
 

robsbird

red ones are faster
Club Sponsor
thanks guys for all your inputs......

i just wanted to put this out there for the benefit of others

I feel very strong about this as i say it is part of my living so i will not just roll over for them.

I was just more shocked to get the as i now know the standard letter worded the way it is .......And to think how many does it shock in to paying up and doing the course......?

i do feel blessed as the company i work for have stood up for me and offed to cover the costs of what is needed to work this all ok if it did ever get to court

the shocking part about this is the only way i could get some one in this to look at the case was to file a complete and i was told to do this by a police man that is one of the good ones so there are some out there.
 

andyBeaker

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I am sorry Andy,
justice is not something that should be doled out as 'something that works well for the vast majority', no matter how big the majority is.
Justice HAS to be used 'per customer', as we see here in this thread, there is no other fair and meaningful way...

I wonder if you would be quite so laid back if it was you in the same situation ?

It's not a matter of being laid back John, it's a matter of being realistic. Plod simply cannot use their limited resources to deal with damage only accidents. If they did everyone would then moan that they aren't doing something more important. As if they don't get enough of that crap already.

As far as I can judge an easy option is being given to avoid The possibility of prosecution. No admission of guilt is required in taking this route. It might stick in the throat a bit, particularly as human instinct is, and I am not casting judgement in this specific case, 'it wasn't my fault'. I would want to know more about the 'three year bit' - suspect this may have something to do with Statute of Limitations but maybe not?

I have every sympathy with the person in this situation, I have been there before myself and it is unpleasant, and in my case it did not have any work implications. I ended up with my Fazer wedged under a van, fortunately minor damage, a few scuffs, busted screen and lever. The van that I hit had a dent in the side. Who's fault? Mainly his but I was filtering down the outside of traffic so one of those situations where blame/ partial blame might be attached, rightly or wrongly, to both parties. Even though he was, coincidentally, coming out of a garage and turning right"............. against a 'no right turn' sign! After a bit of a chat later in the day I suggested that we would just sort ourselves out and get on with life. He was surprised but more than happy with this resolution. End of incident, cost me a couple of hundred quid to sort the bike that I might have otherwise got from his insurance but c'est la vie. If that's 'laid back' then I can live with it:-0)
 
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mikeyw64

Guest
It's not a matter of being laid back John, it's a matter of being realistic. Plod simply cannot use their limited resources to deal with damage only accidents. If they did everyone would then moan that they aren't doing something more important. As if they don't get enough of that crap already.

As far as I can judge an easy option is being given to avoid The possibility of prosecution. No admission of guilt is required in taking this route. It might stick in the throat a bit, particularly as human instinct is, and I am not casting judgement in this specific case, 'it wasn't my fault'. I would want to know more about the 'three year bit' - suspect this may have something to do with Statute of Limitations but maybe not?

I have every sympathy with the person in this situation, I have been there before myself and it is unpleasant, and in my case it did not have any work implications. I ended up with my Fazer wedged under a van, fortunately minor damage, a few scuffs, busted screen and lever. The van that I hit had a dent in the side. Who's fault? Mainly his but I was filtering down the outside of traffic so one of those situations where blame/ partial blame might be attached, rightly or wrongly, to both parties. Even though he was, coincidentally, coming out of a garage and turning right"............. against a 'no right turn' sign! After a bit of a chat later in the day I suggested that we would just sort ourselves out and get on with life. He was surprised but more than happy with this resolution. End of incident, cost me a couple of hundred quid to sort the bike that I might have otherwise got from his insurance but c'est la vie. If that's 'laid back' then I can live with it:-0)

TC Summed it up nicely earlier:

"99% of the time the Police are not interested in damage only crashes. This goes back to even in my time when we were becoming increasingly agents for the insurers and we were told even back then, if the law has been complied with, the road is not blocked and there are no allegations of a serious traffic offence having been committed, then leave alone. Record the details on an HO/RT6 (brown card minor RTC report) and leave the scene.

But, if they are going to deal with any traffic incident, then at least deal with it properly."

Simply sending out a standard letter is laziness, if they aren't going to investigate at the time then just let the insurance companies argue it out.
 
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mikeyw64

Guest
FWIW I personally would (politely) tell them to stick their course where the sun doesn't shine.

One thing though, it was a "Special" attended, how did they get involved? Did either you or the other driver call them or did they just happen to be there?


I'm guessing that the attending officer probably (given he /she seems to have done nothing other than make sure details were exchanged) took no road measurements, pictures or any other evidence gathering at the scene?

As for the accident itself, was the other driver driving with their eyes closed ?

Ok you had pulled out but you were stationary in that position for a good 2 or 3 seconds before they tried squeezing through the gap between you and the oncoming traffic
 

andyBeaker

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I'm guessing that the attending officer probably (given he /she seems to have done nothing other than make sure details were exchanged) took no road measurements, pictures or any other evidence gathering at the scene?

why on earth would plod be going to those lengths for a damage only? As a taX payer I would be extremely pissed off if they did. Sorry, there are more important things for plod to be doing. If there hAd been injury or worse (thank heavens there was nobody at the bus stop) then no doubt all the stops would have been pulled out

As for the accident itself, was the other driver driving with their eyes closed ?

Ok you had pulled out but you were stationary in that position for a good 2 or 3 seconds before they tried squeezing through the gap between you and the oncoming traffic

funny how two people can look at the same thing and reach different conclusions as you and I have done in this case. Hence going to court could be a lottery, TC,who knows about these things, has opined earlier in this thread so maybe the driving course is not the bette noir it may appear be
..................
 
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mikeyw64

Guest
this is the way the letter is worded.....



h1d1ng2

key word is "believed".

As I said above I know what I would be doing but your circumstances may be different :)

As I also said somewhere it would be interesting to find out if the other driver has also received the letter although that could be difficult to find out in this specific case.

What might be interesting is a carefully worded FOI request to Cheshire Constabulary along the lines of

For the Period 1st Jan 2006 to present (broken down by year) how many Road Traffic incidents where it is believed one or more drivers involved were believed to be driving contrary to Section 3 etc etc have led to the issuing of an offer to attend a Road Safety Awareness Course .

For each of these occasions please also detail

a) how many times all involved parties were sent the offer
b) how many of these offers were subsequently prosecuted
c) if taken to prosecution how many were found guilty
 
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