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Police Officer Pushes Man Over Who Then Dies

  • Thread starter firebladetrev
  • Start date
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firebladetrev

Guest
He will be tried for manslaughter if he is tried for anything.

And so he should be. We would all be on a manslaughter charge. If convicted he should serve it in a normal jail not one where he is segregated. He was man enough to push an innocent man that died so he should be man enough to serve jail time with others.
 
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Jamsey1969

Guest
Everyone is entitled to their opinion on this one. It's easy to see who hates the Police out there. The fact of the matter is love or hate them they will come and help you whatever your issue is.

It's unforntunate that most decent peoples dealings with them are when you are getting a ?60 sadness voucher for giving it the beans down some road. However they do a bloody good job most of the time. As I posted before if this incident hadn't been on video then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

It just gives certain people a good excuse to have another dig at the Police. I personally don't think he should be prosecuted, however now that the death has been deemed unlawful you can bet your boots he will be in court for manslaughter that is a certainty. But lets hope common sense prevails and he gets a not guilty verdict.

If this cop gets convicted and gets a sentence then you can be assured that many public order officers will be handing back their kit and telling senoir officers to stuff it. So when the next big demo is on in a town near you and everthing is getting trashed don't blame the police for not doing anything, blame the demonstrators!

The cops will be too scared to have a hands on approach and that means more grief for us the general public.
 
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fivetide

Guest
I can see Jamsey's point.

The police were not going to let anyone through that line. Not hard for people to dress up a bit scruffy, say "I'm just heading home from work officer, i totally promise I'm not trying to get to any building that those nasty vandals might target"

As if the cops are goign to say "Well that's alright then off you go"

The problem here is this cop is a thug, loves the power and is the sort of person that shouldn't have it.

The flip side is, the 'victim' is an old soak who has basically drunk away his life. the cops wanted him to get a move on, he starts sauntering along with his hands in his pockets, some would see that (and I'm sure the cop in question did) as him taking the mick and delaying them in their job on a day where there was a lot of pressure on.

Should he have been hit? no way. Should they have picked him up and slung him in a van until he'd sobered up? Probably but I don't think this cop can be told he is 100% responsible for the chap's death.

If he'd pushed anyone else over, they'd have had a bruised knee. Because this bloke's body was failign him anyway (his own fault) he died. Its tragic and all but there has to be some portion of blame given to the sozzled bloke in the first place.

Kick him out of the force for not doing his job right but to sting him for manslaughter might be a bit far. What if the next protester smashing up the streets turns out to have an undiagnosed heart condition? The cops can't be asked to get a full medical of anyone that is acting like a tit in their presence can they?

5t.
 

rovinghawk

Registered User
It's easy to see who hates the Police out there.
It's not about hate, it's about requiring them to be accountable in the same way as everyone else & expecting them to not kill old winos.

The fact of the matter is love or hate them they will come and help you whatever your issue is.
Really? Really????

It just gives certain people a good excuse to have another dig at the Police.
It's not about police generally, it's about BAD police. Surely to God you can appreciate the difference?

now that the death has been deemed unlawful you can bet your boots he will be in court for manslaughter
He killed someone- a trial is hardly unreasonable.

lets hope common sense prevails
Let's hope justice prevails, surely?

The cops will be too scared to have a hands on approach
Too scared to beat an old boy from behind & kill him? I fail to see a downside to this.

that means more grief for us the general public.
But possibly fewer unlawful killings. I see your point- do you see mine?

RH
 
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CBR77

Guest
Policing in the UK has always been very hands on, largely due to the fact they are, as a rule, unarmed. In countries such as the US, and most of Europe, the officer possessing a fireamr has to confront persons from a distance, when they get up close and personal it tends to go wrong. A high proprtion of Police officers shot in the US are done so by their own firearm.

jamsey is correct - every time an incident like this is put under close scrutiny, the police become a little more apprehensive about using force on subjects, no matter what the situation. This trial (if there is one) will set a massive precedence for deaths after police contact, and if the PC is convicted, you can bet your arse a lot of the public order trained officers will jack that side of their job in. Why would you want to put yourself at risk policing protests knowing if, during the unpredictable mayhem, somebody dies or is seriously injured, you face jail for manslaughter/GBH?

The newest generation of police officers tend to be risk averse as it is. If handled badly this will only compound the situation, and you'll be left with an increasingly violent island nation being policed by officers scared to restrain subjects for fear of prosecution and/or having your life torn to bits in the media.

Police morale is already at an all time low. Big cuts have been made, with further pay reductions and freezes on pay rises for the next couple of years. With everything being put under a microscope, loss of the 'early retirement' after 30 years service, and all the other bollocks lined up for the police, who the hell would want to do this job anymore?

Anyway, I digress. All this public dissection of the police, coupled with the Winsor report, should make for an interesting year. It's going to be a fun summer when the ne'er do wells start rioting, and nobody is willing to take them on, or is forced to do so. I'm sure somebody said "I'd rather have ten volunteers than a hundred pressed men." When the shit hits the fan, I'll be taking care of my own, thanks very much.

And the vast majority of police will help you when needed, and do a bloody good job too. There are a few rotten eggs, but aren't there always?

The drive to get police onto the 'frontline' and into the public view has hit back office functions hard, and don't forget the loss of hundreds (if not thousands) of civvie staff is putting further strain on the 'frontline'. Do you really think they emplyed all those civilian staff to sit on their arses and do nothing? Many performed vital support roles which have now been lost. Who's going to suffer? The officers and the public, who else.

When you have ten patrol officers covering a town of 200,000 people, they aren't going to be able to see you all.
 

Murt

Letch
Very well said CBR77.

Nail on head time.

I am aware of a number of PSU trained officers who have recently attempted to hand in their gear or be taken off the unit only to be told NO!

They are going to be ultra careful in future, and err to the side of more caution when dealing with trouble.
Wonder how long it will take for 'some people' to complain that Police are not dealing with riots (sorry, disorder ;-0))) robustly enough.

Murt.
 

rovinghawk

Registered User
I am aware of a number of PSU trained officers who have recently attempted to hand in their gear or be taken off the unit only to be told NO!
Quoting many police officers (out of context, admittedly)- "The innocent have nothing to fear"

RH
 
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firebladetrev

Guest
jamsey is correct - every time an incident like this is put under close scrutiny, the police become a little more apprehensive about using force on subjects, no matter what the situation. This trial (if there is one) will set a massive precedence for deaths after police contact, and if the PC is convicted, you can bet your arse a lot of the public order trained officers will jack that side of their job in. Why would you want to put yourself at risk policing protests knowing if, during the unpredictable mayhem, somebody dies or is seriously injured, you face jail for manslaughter/GBH?

I am not anti police i believe they do a very good job, if you break the law and get your collar felt that was your choice when you stepped the other side of the line. Police are a disciplined force like the armed services, they know what a Police officers job entails, they take the money for doing that job, so do it. How can they then pick and choose what part of the job they do, if they are told to police a riot they should go police a riot. Can you imagine what would happen if some of the 18 year olds that have been sent to Afghan and Iraq would get if they said we aint going? And what about all the Soldiers in Northern Ireland that were tried for murder because they were doing there job. I personally knew back in the 80's a Bootie that was taken to court on a manslaughter charge for shooting someone in Ireland even though he followed his training by the book, ie Halt who goes there, Halt who goes there, Halt or i will shoot, Bang. The video clearly shows the guy being pushed, colapsing and then ending up dead. Whether he had problems with his health before hand is nothing to do with it. What you need to ask yourself is, If the guy had not been hit / pushed to the pavement would he still be alive today, very probably but thats not my call to make, thats up for the experts to prove one way or another in court, if it gets to court. I believe it should go to court.
 
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firebladetrev

Guest
Very well said CBR77.

Nail on head time.

I am aware of a number of PSU trained officers who have recently attempted to hand in their gear or be taken off the unit only to be told NO!

Why should they be taken off they get paid to do a job DO IT. Or am i wrong in thinking the Police is not a disciplined force much the same as our Armed forces. By this i mean they have a ranking system and it is the sergeants upwards that give the orders.
 

Murt

Letch
Why should they be taken off they get paid to do a job DO IT. Or am i wrong in thinking the Police is not a disciplined force much the same as our Armed forces. By this i mean they have a ranking system and it is the sergeants upwards that give the orders.

Slightly wrong end of the stick mate.
These are officers who (mostly) volunteered to do a two year stint on a public order unit.
Now, after about three years, because no other officers want to go onto said unit, they are being 'kept on'.

The reasons they don't want to continue on said units are wide and varied.
Some reasons are.. Having shifts changed to work EVERY weekend, no overtime payments at all, called out at short notice but not having a call out payment system.

Then, during training, they are trained to deal with someone who, say, keeps pushing them, or spitting at them when in a line stopping trouble by a sharp push, flat hand to the chest, as first form of defence.

Then, if the person makes a complain of the officer pushing them, the IPCC does not need to prove that it was an assault, but just that it was an inappropriate push. ( for instance).

In those circumstances, the 'witnesses' tend to be mates of the person, so a push, becomes pushed over for no reason mate, punched in the face, hit with his stick.... Most bosses haven't seen an angry man apart from through an office window, so, as opposed to EVIDENCE, the case becomes found on THE BALANCE OF PROBABILITY. ( Rules for police complaints from about five years ago).

That's why they want to go back on normal shifts, doing just as you say above.

Murt.
 

rovinghawk

Registered User
In those circumstances, the 'witnesses' tend to be mates of the person, so a push, becomes pushed over for no reason mate, punched in the face, hit with his stick.... Most bosses haven't seen an angry man apart from through an office window, so, as opposed to EVIDENCE, the case becomes found on THE BALANCE OF PROBABILITY.
Given the proliferation of phone cameras & TV crews at public order events (not to mention the police's own camera units), I'd suggest that this is less common now than previously.

It's forbidden for lesser mortals to film police, apparently, but sometimes it benefits the officer for the facts to be recorded.

RH
 
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firebladetrev

Guest
Slightly wrong end of the stick mate.
These are officers who (mostly) volunteered to do a two year stint on a public order unit.
Now, after about three years, because no other officers want to go onto said unit, they are being 'kept on'.

The reasons they don't want to continue on said units are wide and varied.
Some reasons are.. Having shifts changed to work EVERY weekend, no overtime payments at all, called out at short notice but not having a call out payment system.

Then, during training, they are trained to deal with someone who, say, keeps pushing them, or spitting at them when in a line stopping trouble by a sharp push, flat hand to the chest, as first form of defence.

Then, if the person makes a complain of the officer pushing them, the IPCC does not need to prove that it was an assault, but just that it was an inappropriate push. ( for instance).

In those circumstances, the 'witnesses' tend to be mates of the person, so a push, becomes pushed over for no reason mate, punched in the face, hit with his stick.... Most bosses haven't seen an angry man apart from through an office window, so, as opposed to EVIDENCE, the case becomes found on THE BALANCE OF PROBABILITY. ( Rules for police complaints from about five years ago).

That's why they want to go back on normal shifts, doing just as you say above.

Murt.

Murt what i meant is you join the Police to do a job, if that job involves policing public order so be it. If that is a job that is needed to be done by the police it should not be a voluntary thing, all Police officers should be trained and then called in when needed. Much the same with the forces you join the forces and you do everything that is wanted of you, you don't get a chance to pick and choose. And a private / able seaman aged 18 is on a lot less than a Police Officer but they do as they are told. Sorry if i confused you.
 
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firebladetrev

Guest
In those circumstances, the 'witnesses' tend to be mates of the person, so a push, becomes pushed over for no reason mate, punched in the face, hit with his stick.... Most bosses haven't seen an angry man apart from through an office window, so, as opposed to EVIDENCE, the case becomes found on THE BALANCE OF PROBABILITY. ( Rules for police complaints from about five years ago).Murt.

I was under the impresion that MATES as you put it could not act as witnesses. The reason i say this is i was out on the bike a couple of years ago with 5 mates when a BMW started driving less that 1 foot off of my number plate and trying to run me off the road by driving alongside and and then changing lanes thus forcing me to do the same. We all pulled over, phoned the Police gave them the reg and they ask if there was any witnesses i said yes the 5 people riding with me and they told me they cannot use any statement by them as they are not independant.
 
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CBR77

Guest
Officers have the option of taking extra training to specialise in public order. Of course they all deal with it in one form or another, for instance policing the town centre on a Friday evening, but many metropolitan forces have dedicated public order units. TSG in the Met is one such specialist team.

What I was getting at, as was Murt, is that officers won't want to specialise in this type of department. They won't want the extra hassle that it brings.

Therefore, when the shit hits the fan (it will) and the great unwashed take to the streets in their grubby tracksuits, the only thing between them and your nice three bed semi will be a collection of poorly trained PCs who don't want to be there in the first place.

As with the fire strikes, the army will be called in to aid in restoring order, and then you'll see some real....erm... robust policing.

Yes they are paid to do a job, but not particularly well until they've been in a few years, and the caliber of officers is declining. It is now seen as a job rather than a career by many, and private sector work pays more, and is safer. Probably not as much fun though. And you won't see many career shift officers - many will do their best to jump ship to a specialist department as soon as their probationary period is up.

Anyway, what am I saying. You all know more about it than me, and the general consensus in this thread seems to point towards dealing with an increasingly volatile and aggressive criminal underclass by means of hugs, kisses and stern letters if they persist in their ghastly behaviour.

Maybe we could even give them little stickers for good behaviour. It'll be like those cops in Demolition Man. Average film.
 

derek kelly

The Deli lama
Club Sponsor
Not being a Police officer I obviously coudn't state this as fact however I would imagine that people join the police force for several reasons, some may join wanting to ride round in patrol cars, some may want to join dog section/mounted section, etc some join wiling to do whatever they have to do to get to the top of the tree, a friend of my brother's sole reason for joining (in 1972) was so he could get into Leeds United matches for free.

Officers will have specific training for each section so imagine having an Officer in the mounted section who could not drive & ordering him to drive a patrol car, or sending a beat bobby out with a patrol dog when he's not been trained, these are obviously extreme comparisons but the gist is there, there are times when the hierarchy cannot just order an Officer to perform a task.
 

rovinghawk

Registered User
Yes they are paid to do a job, but not particularly well until they've been in a few years
Isn't that the case in any profession?
the caliber of officers is declining
That's largely what this thread is about, isn't it?
private sector work pays more
Please prove that statement. Also allow for one of the best pensions in the world & the 11.4k that the taxpayer pays into the average copper's pension per year (source: Hansard 2009).

the general consensus in this thread seems to point towards dealing with an increasingly volatile and aggressive criminal underclass
Do you mean the public or the police?

RH
 
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firebladetrev

Guest
Not being a Police officer I obviously coudn't state this as fact however I would imagine that people join the police force for several reasons, some may join wanting to ride round in patrol cars, some may want to join dog section/mounted section, etc some join wiling to do whatever they have to do to get to the top of the tree, a friend of my brother's sole reason for joining (in 1972) was so he could get into Leeds United matches for free.

Officers will have specific training for each section so imagine having an Officer in the mounted section who could not drive & ordering him to drive a patrol car, or sending a beat bobby out with a patrol dog when he's not been trained, these are obviously extreme comparisons but the gist is there, there are times when the hierarchy cannot just order an Officer to perform a task.

Yes i understand that they cannot be trained to do every job and i am not suggesting that for one minute. But come on crowd control is basic policing and as such every police officer should be trained to a high standard in this field.
 

Murt

Letch
Given the proliferation of phone cameras & TV crews at public order events (not to mention the police's own camera units), I'd suggest that this is less common now than previously.

It's forbidden for lesser mortals to film police, apparently, but sometimes it benefits the officer for the facts to be recorded.

RH

Is it?

Wonder where the video of the death of the person subject of this thread came from then.
 
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